Origins of the Russo Ukrainian war and why you shouldn't support Ukraine.
Main take aways.
1. The initial invasion in 2022 was not a land grab, this is based on Russian demands for peace in 2022.
2. Russia is not a force for moral good or as country to fully get behind and their forces have committed numerous atrocities and have illegally annexed regions beyond Donetsk and Luhansk that they have no moral justification to take.
3. Ukraine is a neo Nazi banderite western puppet regime who view ethnic Russians as sub human and enact fascist legislation towards them.
4. Donbas (donetsk and Luhansk) deserve to be free from Ukraine, and Russia has Full justification to secure those regions, due to Ukraines mass murder of thousands of civilians by indiscriminate shelling, mass torture of civilians by far right bandera militias and fascist legislation.
5. From a moral anti war perspective russias demands in both 2021 and 2022 were perfectly fine as NATO is a terrorist organisation and used as a tool for western imperialism and are a clear threat to Russian sovereignty and DPR and LPR deserve independence for previous reasons.
6. Russia is the simply the lesser of evils vs Ukraine and the west and the are still a capitalist power who subjugate the working class.
7. Crimea deserves to stay with Russia based on how Ukraine has treated ethnic Russians and the fact that census data pre liberation from Ukraine showed majority russian population along with elections voting to stay with Russia
Now before we go ahead.
Fuck Russia. They treat addicts like shit, have a goofy Conservative government with BS "traditional values" that treat lgbt people like shit, ther forces helped numerous brutal dictators in Africa and arm numerous rebel groups that have committed numerous atrocities and they only see Ukraine as a buffer state, a meat shield between them and the West. They are not a force for good in the world, putin is not some kind of hero for the people, although the only positive thing I will say for him is that he supports his people, where yeltsin was ready to sell off Russia piece by piece (why the west was getting so friendly with Russia in the 90s) putin put a stop to that shit, I DESPISE the west (🇺🇸🇪🇺🇮🇱🇬🇧) they are the primary cause for the vast majority of evil and misery on this planet and so any force that faces them, I can at least "support" in a lesser of evil context.
To Russian fanboys who love to use my stuff, I am not like you. I do not support you or your shit capitalist country, the ONLY reasons I will ever even remotely praise Russia will be
1. In relation to facing Ukraine
2. In relation to facing the west.
I am NOT on your side. To me Russia is just another capitalist power that needs to be removed for the good of the workers of the world and oppressed in the third world.
That said. Fuck Ukraine, they are 1000% worse than Russia and they are a puppet regime of the west. They are a horrible nazi style regime that pushes banderite ideology as it's state norm. They teach their children that russians are sub human descendents of the golden horde and that their people are true Europeans, they have government backed marches of actual nazis, they praise WWII nazis as heros and they have state backed nazi militias that train children as young as 8 to shoot and kill.
between 2014 and 2022 they unleashed a campaign of terrorism against those living in donbas (all because they wanted a referendum mediated by a third party because they did not recognise the illegal ousting of the Democratically elected president) with constant purposeful and indiscriminate shelling and rocket attacks that injured over 20,000 civilians and killed thousands, including over 100 to 300+ children, not only that they unleashed far right nazi bandera militias (like Azov, C14 and Farbota) who along with their state SBU (SS) let loose a systemic targeting of any and all ethnic Russians, pro Russia Ukrainians or any separatists which resulted in torture, rape, executions, kidnappings and so on. The government of Ukraine enacted fascist legislation such as
Removing pensions based on ethnicity
Removing welfare protections based on ethnicity
Punitive Language laws based on ethnicity
Anti Russia laws (under the guise of anti communism)
As of 2022 their nazism has only increased.
What do I want from this war ? I want Ukraine defeated in the east, I want Donetsk and Luhansk to be free and a safe haven for any pro Russia or ethnic Russians living in Ukraine to move there (Russia has been doing this) more than anything I want this over. Russia is winning and will win.
So Recap.
Russia is an authoritarian regime with centralised power within one party, with backwards views of lgbt rights and addiction treatments. They view Ukraine as a vassal state and only want a puppet regime without caring how they treat the people. As we will go on. They don't systemically target Ukrainians in Russia for being Ukrainian. They don't ban language and have language and culture laws and policing, they don't have state funded marches of literal nazis and don't push and fund state backed ideologies that view Ukrainians as sub human. Fuck Russia and fuck Ukraine. I want peace as fast as possible and its very clear Ukraine is not going to win.
Part 0. intro. Recap of conflict
Part 1. Will go over various myths
Part 2. Causes and hypocrisy
Part 3. History of Ukraine nazism
Part 4. Ukraines crimes during civil war and their evil actions
Part 5. How Ukraine is no different to Russia on war crimes and why the US is worse.
Part 6. Debunking counter arguments from liberals
This entire conflict started because in 2013/14 Ukraine was in deep economic crisis, the EU offered a deal but with conditions to lessen ties with Moscow and possibly join EU and NATO in future, Russia made the offer to help but without the stipulations the EU had, the Ukrainian government took the Russia offer, this angered many western and central ukrainians who are more pro EU. Other factors were included, including the rampant corruption in Ukraine (which didn't change after the coup)
This lead to the maiden protests, in which pro EU and pro Russia supporters clashed, then there was US/EU backed coup that toppled the democratically elected government in favour of a pro western one, this resulted in many Ukrainians in the east who seen themselves as Russian, wanting to secede, all they wanted was the right to self govern and given referendum, how did Ukraine respond? By placing them under occupation with police. The protestors then responded by taking police and government buildings at which point they turned to Russia for help at which point the war in donbas started which was followed by Shelling and putting them under military occupation, to which they started their major rebellion and when the shelling increased and Ukraine let loose far right militias to rape and pillage, poroshenko was the one in control as he was in control of the coup forces, people who say it wasn't a coup are talking utter nonsense, they literally call it a revolution. A revolution is another side's coup if done by the government.
Russia annexed crimea and taking most of Ukraines navy (although they did return a lot) many in Ukrainian military and navy defected to Russia, Ukrainians in Donbas wanted independence, as they did not recognise the government or elections as legitimate, but Kiev refused so russia armed and trained them in which Ukraine responded with its "anti terrorism" operation in which started The War in Donbas where the rebels secured Donetsk and Luhansk and fought various back and forth until Minsk accords in which Poroshenko and Putin agreed that Donetsk and Luhansk would be given special status. This failed though as both sides broke the rules, DPR and LPR continued to have elections and Ukrainian neo Nazi banderite militias fighting in donbas said they wouldn't stop "until complete liberation of Ukrainian lands from Russian occupants'', and promised "death to Russian terrorist-occupiers" these groups follow the ideology of Ukrainian national hero Stepan Bandera and view Russians as subhuman, with aid from the Ukrainian SBU they unleashed a campaign of terror across the east.
Following the election of soon to be dictator Zelensky, he made it very clear that he had no interest in making peace and spoke about taking back all of Donbas and Crimea, asserting that they belong to Ukraine regardless of what the people living there think or want, I 2020-21 NATO talks and exercises began along with intensifiers of attacks in east then in 2021 Russia began in military games with Belarus in which Ukraine responded by building up its military in the donbas. Talks of Ukraine joining NATO and EU also began surfacing, to Vladimir Putin this was "unacceptable and a threat to the national security and territorial integrity of Russia'' and in early 2022 in france Talks were held but Zelensky refused to acknowledge DPR & LPR sovereignty, refused any idea or notion of a referendum in those regions and refused to accept results of Crimean election and said there would NO NEGOTIATIONS until "all Ukrainian land is back in Ukrainian hands''.
(I'm not even joking that's what he said at the paris talks, the great peacemaker)
Vladimir Putin warned that the west is pushing war between NATO and Russia and threatening to push the world into nuclear war. On February 22nd 2022 President Putin declared that DPR and LPR were fully sovereign states and that Ukraine was a criminal regime that had neo Nazi banderites high in its government and military and sought to commit genocide against people of donbas (western "analysts" said these are dubious claims at best but allowing far right neo Nazi miltias to terrorise people in donbas, celebrating UPA leader who committed genocide and viewed Russians as sub human doesn't help their case)
On February 24th 2022 The armed forces of Russia launched a full scale invasion of Ukraine. Russian objectives.
Ukraine to never join NATO
To recognise Crimea as part of Russia
To recognise DPR and LPR as independent regions
"Don't you make content on russisn equipment and history"
Yes. I make content on American equipment as well. Doesn't mean i support them. Its the hypocrisy that annoys me. If people were happy to condem Ukraine as much as they do Russia id be fully behind it. But liberals lack objective nuance.
Let me explain. For Russia invading Ukraine its just "Russia is bad imperialist" whilst USA invading Iraq or Ukraine killing their own people "requires nuance"
Hypocrisy. This is why a lot of the times you have seen me write or talk uts sounds as though I support Russia. I don't. I support them taking Donetsk and Luhansk. Thats it. That's the only moral justification they have for taking land from Ukraine. Beyond that its just pure imperialism and I don't back it. I understand it but I will not support it. And in the end fuck Russ they are just a capitalist society that cares for their elites. To mee they're just a lesser of evils vs 🇺🇸🇬🇧🇮🇱🇪🇺🇺🇦.
I view countries as follows
Respectable (this means I support them in their goals)
1. Cuba
2. Vietnam
3. China
4. Burkina Faso
5. Hamas
6. Houthis
Neutral (this means I'm not really against them or for them)
1. Russia
2. Iran
3. Venezuela
Evil (absolutely hate, the most harmful groups)
1. Israel
2. USA
3. Saudi Arabia
4. Britain
5. EU
7. Ukraine
Part 1. Will go over various myths
“It wasn't a coup president was removed by vote”
Picture this, Trump or biden supporters are rioting and destroying properties and attacking people and police and won't stop until Biden or trump is removed. Would you consider that a legitimate removal ?
No, no you wouldn't.
“Iglr girkin admitted the rebellion in donbass was created by Russia”
Igor girkin only started speaking against Russia after he was forced to take accountability for the downing of the passenger jet by Ukrainian separatists, afterwards he began a tirade against the government and was arrested for extremism. He is not a reliable source in any way especially when so much of what he says contradicts what he used to say and especially since his testimonials is only corroborated by his supporters or pro bandera Ukrainians.
"Russia is to blame for aggravating Ukraine in 2021"
This has to be a joke ? In 2021 we had the
Massive military build up over 100k Ukrainian forces in donbas
Increasing attacks against donbas
Zelensky saying that there will be no diplomacy and that Crimea will be taken back
Further talks of NATO membership
Weapons systems being delivered to Ukraine by NATO
Anti Russian language law coming into legislation
This was built on the continuous refusal of Ukraine to let donbas
Have a referendum mediated by a 3rd party
Have elections in the independent regions.
https://theowp.org/ukraine-declares-all-options-possible-even-war-to-retake-crimea-from-russia/
"Why should Ukraine allow a third party referendum when Russia wouldn't allow one in crimea"
1. Crimeans didn't raise up arms against Russian rule despite Ukrainian and Western attempts.
2. Why should Russia do this when Ukraine refused to even allow those I'm donbas to hears
There's a reason why revolutions or coups are hard, you need two things at minimum
Lots of public support
Funding and arms (either from outside or from inside ie the military)
100% Ukraine was the aggressor in 2021.
“The revolution was in response to police brutality and oppression”
Yes, that's like saying the police wouldn't be justified in responding to January 6th, the Rioters killed people, destroyed property, and threw petrol bombs at police. A violent riot receives a violent response.
Ukraine Rioters during Maiden
https://youtu.be/kI-J_ENr4aY?si=8dPnj7P9vrl2bFOe
https://youtu.be/o-Gkbs2bDJs?si=4MiDJOIZkgvxd4gu
https://youtu.be/8oJMGgaww70?si=ffXF2ZxWxG3qwUC-
https://youtu.be/Nqh9VS1cb84?si=dOTnTLtof5LsJVuU
https://youtu.be/B8xE-GkSIyg?si=c_84pTYeVI5-odiV
https://youtu.be/HmN-A5efPQs?si=YxHwGHAsQaZCyYpI
https://youtu.be/Hq8OzRXUgbk?si=uH6DVSguRcGOgYKz
Let's see what they did
Pro Russia people burned alive in odeesa
https://youtu.be/oNZwLA869Sc?t=386&si=LI6Fq8Fbh1mYVtB9
https://youtu.be/te7DyWgYdh8?si=QuViOZqtcObK7D3E&utm_source=MTQxZ
"Peaceful protesters"
Even Ukrainian citizens back this
https://youtu.be/2GOFSppKgrg?si=fUzJDTvxCqErBto0&utm_source=MTQxZ
“Nobody in Ukraine supported Russia until 2015”
This is just nonsense, but I do love the now standard conspiracy theory that there are and were no pro Russia Ukrainians or separatists and it's all just evil Russian crisis actors and just Russian military.
There's literally countless videos of pro-Russia marches all across Ukraine from 2012 to 2014. Many of the clashes were between maiden and pro Russia.
https://youtu.be/0QGFZev_h7g?si=0rNGcQ2ixVYK1Bf8
https://youtu.be/cBeTJ7yHtpc?si=Yw4cD3-UyVMtg-fP
https://youtu.be/8jkcsehsawk?si=dzPC2nm4OKz7KRXw
https://youtu.be/kI-J_ENr4aY?si=8dPnj7P9vrl2bFOe
https://youtu.be/dMrXEbvxX7Q?si=LLHv7hyLEp-Ffhq3
https://youtu.be/-BUFHTsRz6Y?si=y6s_Hvq0E0x8VyNS
https://youtu.be/ti09sSS8UdI?si=G9p03RUmHU3uwAub
https://youtu.be/BQPyJKRCjSc?si=SxC50RirHPks1df4
https://youtu.be/y_gTtbb6BJs?si=KMFhYKSL_T76C5iC
https://youtu.be/UCkruUEFqFo?si=ThQlHernkFRwCjIp
https://youtu.be/FsNuV_49OvU?si=Jf1QrOeiQzyXrC7a
https://youtu.be/oiqQlAVa578?si=N_nffRLKQzAyYdG8
https://youtu.be/kRoqS9MK3IU?si=ji-4dB21TUlbvKKo
A bit of a tangent but these pro Ukraine people are hilarious.
These Ukrainian simps literally deny any and all atrocities committed by Ukrainian government and blame any and all bad that happens on Russia, people talk about russian tyranny yet when Crimea voted to leave Ukraine, there was street parties in Sevastopol for days and people all over Eastern Ukraine welcomed Russia, you know why because there own government has been shelling them for year's.
I need to reiterate that both sides have done evil. The pro Russia ukrainian rebels and Ukrainian government forces have both killed civilians, committed rapes and other war crimes, that's just the nature of war. Anyone who says a major war has ever been done with honour and morals has never fought in war, experienced it or researched it.
Russia is not a good guy but in terms of suffering caused and lives lost they are a lot better than the US or NATO, it's hilarious how all you ever see in the news is Russia strikes on Ukraine, yet if you watch independent journalists who have covered this since 2013 that are actually there like Patrick Lancaster and Eva Barnett, you'll see the utter carnage that Ukraine causes and if you actually bothered to do any research into the events leading up to the invasion, like the far right militias, the horrid war crimes committed by Ukrainian forces, you'd understand why Russia invaded, I support Russia taking Donetsk and Luhansk regions because those people have been living under Ukrainian tyranny for nearly a decade, the people of Donetsk and Lugansk rebelled for a reason.
"Russian military helped the rebels"
So what ? Russian special forces and specialists (aid with air defence, tanks, C2 etc) aided the separatists.
No different to how NATO aided Ukraine. It's a proxy war of EU and USA vs Russia. Always has been, like USSR vs USA in Vietnam.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9477/
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_115477.htm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/03/obama-nato-support-ukraine-military-russia
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29204505
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29198497
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_112459.htm
“The government was changed because of corruption”
Yeah and a lot of good that did because even post maiden Ukraine was still regarded as one of the most corrupt nations.
Ukraine corruption Post maiden
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35481699.amp
"Russia is a dictatorship"
No. Russia is a democracy (in a sense the government supports their elites the same as the west). They have their state duma with Major parties with the current ruling party United Russia in a combined government with LDPR who are right wing and are opposed by the SRZP and New People who are centrist and liberals and the Russian Communist Party (who are the second largest party in Russia) who are far left socialists.
Many of these politicians voiced opposition to how Russia has conducted the war with leftists supporting the defence of Donetsk but condemning the annexations. Russians support Putin because they remember the Horrors of the 90s, how the Yeltsin administration was basically selling off Russia. Yeah Putin isn't some great nice guy, but to be honest he's no worse than the average European leader, certainly better than Obama and Bush who helped literally destroy entire country's.
“Putin has been in power too long”
Putin has been president for 12 years before that he was president for 8 years, Angela Merkel was chancellor for nearly 20 years straight, Mark Rutte has been prime minister for over 11 years recap Erdoğan has been leader for 21 years, Obama was president for 8 years, thatcher was prime minister for 11 years.
These are non arguments.
“Russia just wants to take land”
This is absolutely true as of 2023, however at the start of the invasion it wasn't. During the initial SMO Russia gave 3 factors it wanted met for peace.
Ukraine to give up on NATO membership
To recognise Crimea as part of Russia
To recognise DPR and LPR as independent regions
however since Ukraine refused these and launched their counter offensive, Russia annexed other oblasts and since the incursion into kursk Russia has stated they won't stop until Ukraine has fully surrendered.
So do I support Russia ? No I don't. They are merely the lesser of evils. Bellow are legitimate criticisms of Russia.
Backwards views of lgbt
Whilst its fully legal to be gay and trans in the USA they have very poor discrimination legislation and have government backed Anti trans views.
Capitalist society
They are a capitalist society that only care for the Russian elites.
Backwards views of drug addicts
no prescribed treatments and addicts are left to rot. They treat addicts like animals
Part 2. Causes and hypocrisy
The propaganda around this is ridiculous, the Ukrainian narrative is that Ukraine did did nothing wrong and whose whole rebellion was just evil russian actors trying to split poor innocent Ukraine, absolutely pathetic, Russia is most certainly not the good guy and have their own political goals but Ukraine is not good either, again both Russia and Ukraine have been killing each other since 2014, both their forces have committed numerous atrocities against each other ls ethnic populations, I'm glad people are waking up and seeing the truth about this conflict.
Western universities and think tanks back these claims People think western universities are more credible just shows how unbelievable bias and naivety is, like how all those think tanks and "independent" groups backed US claims of nukes in Iraq, what a joke, gotta love how they use the NATO bot Manuel 101 and just label people who show Ukraine in a bad light as rUsSiAn pRoPagAndiSt.
It's also funny how many so called leftists will fully support Ukraine and their justifications Are parroting stuff repeated by mainstream media or groups that they mock for their biased Israel covered.
Listen to the stories of people living in donbas, the actions of the nazi Ukrainian state are horrific.
https://youtu.be/zP3kt9fxXCs?si=V1OIIE24qlg2boiH
https://youtu.be/X1b-RKDHZOo?si=dvn1i8BIO8pdD0mM
https://youtu.be/oSTRMWToYBc?si=tQE99WRedIt76u69
https://youtu.be/2y-dkNtKvZw?si=5Qz-Rq6HSsa1hoWt
https://youtu.be/qEp6vUQmYVE?si=eVw6KnJJrjHb9YnC
https://youtu.be/DiM1T2wi4EU?si=GBZEXEXfxOfDNc7m
https://youtu.be/baY9kBEcm_I?si=H21qP0hM880lzjgI
https://youtu.be/vVpt3_wMCeQ?si=AYrKuaWo3qPXp9ZP
People in Donetsk and Luhansk regions could live free from bombs and bullets, like it was prior to 2014 before Ukrainian occupation. Russia and Ukraine are no different, both have commited numerous atrocities against each others soldiers and their own and each other's citizens, of course the only distinction now, is that if you even question the Ukrainian narrative or don't just vilify Russia, (regardless if you support Russia or not) you're seen as a "rUssIaN bOt" if you want to see what's really going on, watch Patrick Lancaster and Eva Barnett, both have been covering this conflict since 2014, and when you see the photos and videos of dead innocent Ukrainians and ethnic russians and the tales of horror from the countless raped women and abused people by Ukrainian forces and banderite militias, you'll see that they are no victims.
It's funny how zelensky and media also talk as though every man wants to fight, when in reality, if you watch videos on telegram, during battle of bakhmut, Ukrainian soldiers were literally given 3-5 days training, handed a gun and thrown into battle, it's senseless, zelensky talks about fighting to the last man, did you know the defenders in the azovstal plant actually wanted to surrender, they were weak, running out of ammunition and had many wounded, but Kiev said no, it's disgusting,
I support the people of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, because I wouldn't trust Ukraine to not massacre any and everyone who is ethnic russian or even remotely associated with Russia, I don't support Russia invading any further, and you can already see the sickening attitudes coming out of Ukraine, like saying all Russia is responsible, the hypocrites cry and weep when Russia missiles strike their cities yet when they do it, they justify it as blaming all Russia for its government, disgusting even now the so called bastion of freedom Ukraine, zelensky has banned opposition parties, suspended elections and banned free press, people need to open their eyes and stop watching the propaganda from ukrainian or western media, it's no different from Russia propaganda, just spews the opposite Nonsense.
Between 2014-2021 up to 13,000 people died, with estimates of around 20-40% being civilians, the reasons for the war are because of ukrainian military actions in east and NATO expansion into Ukraine, I don't condone invading because of NATO expansion but I understand it, but I will condone the people of Donetsk and Lugansk being free.
Facts are, this would never have happened if NATO didn't expand, it was promised to disband at the Budapest meeting and Russia promised it wouldn't invade, but this was based on the factors that NATO eventually disband and until then not expand an inch towards russian territories, as well as on conditions Ukraine didn't violate the territorial integrity of Russia and its people.
Gotta love how people condemns Russia for breaking it's promise but not the west, this wouldn't have happened if Ukraine didn't begin oppressing its own people, you gotta love the copium for this, because for Ukrainian bootlickers and NATO bots to justify why so many Ukrainians did rebel and why so many did and still do support Russia, they have to invent ridiculous conspiracy theories like all the rebels were russian military and that all those killed in videos are actors and the rest is just rUsSiAn pRoPagAndA, it's honestly laughable, I live in reality and I don't support Russia but I support it in taking the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.
Russia invaded because Ukraine was talking about joining NATO, which would mean if they did, Ukraine could launch a massive military operation into Donbas and slaughter the people living there and Russia couldn't do anything without triggering article 5.
The shortest explanation Russia invaded Ukraine for 3 reasons, they claim it was because Ukraine was about to commit genocide and want to destroy Russ but this is false (although you just have to read these comments to get where they get the idea from)
Now I already know it's pointless telling some people this, they will never accept any other narrative other than the big evil Russia just being an imperialist narrative so it's pretty pointless but I'll go anyway.
because there were talks about Ukraine joining NATO that echoed the talks of Georgia joining that made Medvedev help south Ossetia.
Ukraine at the current time joining NATO is unacceptable, why ? Two reasons: war in donbas was still ongoing, Ukraine new president zelensky had no intentions of negotiating with Russia and spoke off not even talking with Putin until Crimea was back under Ukrainian control, Crimea that is russian, my friends Katerina and Sergey are from Sevastopol, it is russian, majority russian language, majority russian culture and they voted to be with Russia "those were fake votes" so any elections in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. are they all fake or is it just fake just based on politics. But regardless if Ukraine joined NATO they could launch a military operation into donbass and Crimea and Russia couldn't do anything without triggering article 5.
If Ukraine joined NATO, "stop there, you can't just join NATO there are strict checks and balances" oh is that from the word of a supposed defensive alliance that has attacked multiple different countries that weren't even on the same continent? A group that was promised to disband on the condition that Russia never attacks Ukraine ? A group that promised to not move an inch towards Russian territories ? A group that's already said they will accept Ukraine despite the rampant corruption and ongoing civil war at the time.
To secure the people of Donbass, believe it or not Russia like the USA aren't some unbelievable cartoonish evil (unlike Israel) they do want to protect their people.
Russia wants a buffer state between NATO, Ukraine unlike Finland and such is incredibly close to Moscow, close enough for even short range missiles to be launched.
Now sure this is a bad reason but again it's hypocrisy, people have short memories, let's not forget the US trying and failing to invade Cuba just because they had soviet missiles, or invading Grenada just because they were socialist and had ties to the USSR. This is what I cannot stand the most, it's the fucking hypocrisy, one rule for me another for thee.
I stand with what the communist party of Russia has said in the Russian parliament, which is that Russia has a right to defend Donbas and Crimea by all means but has no right launching missiles and bombs on other cities of Ukraine. If I had my way I'd have the Minsk accords fully met, all of Donetsk and Luhansk goes to the DPR and LPR, Russia and Ukraine agree to help rebuild the parts destroyed, I just want the war over, Ukraine isn't any better than Russia, they arrest people who go against government, they have corruption issues, both soldiers have committed countless atrocities, both countries regularly have little to no regard for civilian casualties. But I'll tell you both if they are more moral than the USA based on destruction and misery caused.
A good thought experiment for Americans.
Picture this. You are America
There's two regions in mexico. One that you took back after fear that Mexico was going to remove your military bases there and put Russian and Chinese Military there. (Your bases there was a condition of your agreement with Mexico to have that region)
Then There's an independent region full of Americans and pro US supporters in Mexico that declared sovereignty after the pro US Mexican president was forcefully removed and replaced by a pro Russia and pro china government. They wanted an independence referendum but never got one. Instead they get put under military occupation and anti American groups start popping up and wreaking havoc and Mexico starts supporting people, who viewed Americans as sub human, as their national heroes. So they turn to you and you give them weapons, train them and have your special forces help out and you try to get a settlement that says this region should be independent because of the removal of democratically elected president who was popular in those regions.
What do you do when the president of Mexico declares that he wants to take back these areas and is in talks to join a Russian and Chinese Military alliance that would put their assets in Mexico and also means that Mexico could attack the independent regions full of Americans and you couldn't do anything without triggering a military response from Russia and China along with the fact Mexico is doing military drills with Russia and China and has been given over ~20 billion dollars in aid used to help bolster Mexican military in 8 years and there military alliance has drawn Cuba and Canada into it after they promised to disband it, and remember this military alliance sole existence was to challenge you and also remember that Russia and China have sanctioned you for securing your military bases and word spread by iranian president that Mexico never had any intention of seeking a truce and wanted to take back the regions.
"Wouldn't there be checks and balances to prevent Mexico from joining whilst there's a civil war ?"
There should be. But remember this is an organisation that claims to be defensive yet has attacked numerous sovereign countries and has military operations and bases well beyond its own borders and Remember this organisation's SOLE existence is to be against YOU.
Liberals say there's no evidence they would let Ukraine join or that NATO would do anything.
Hmm.
We have substantial NATO political support
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_115477.htm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/03/obama-nato-support-ukraine-military-russia
Nato military exercises in Ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29204505
NATO direct military support
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29198497
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_112459.htm
Like western Simps cry about Russia supporting the separatists yet say nothing when NATO supports Ukraine or whenever they invade other countries like Libya
But no, according to liberals NATO has no plans for Ukraine, they obviously have a process. Yes I'm sure the word of "defensive" alliance that has numerous military bases in countries well beyond its borders and has launched offensive military campaigns and who's entire existence was to be against Russia
Jesus christ why can't Russia just stop whining eh.
This entire conflict was created and caused by NATO to test their weapons in modern war and deplete russias military and if Ukraine won place short range missiles that can be tipped with nukes that can easily reach Moscow and evade early warning systems which is a huge reason why Russia doesn't want Ukraine specifically in NATO.
https://www.democracynow.org/2022/4/28/anatol_lieven_ukraine_proxy_war.
https://news.yahoo.com/news/nato-countries-using-ukraine-testing-103435776.html
NATO offensive operations
Syria
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_civil_war
Libya
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unified_Protector
Afghanistan
https://ppr.lse.ac.uk/articles/10.31389/lseppr.55
Iraq
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq
Gulf war
https://blesma.org/gulf-war-anniversary/
https://shape.nato.int/page2148111510
Kosovo
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_48818.htm
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49602.htm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Force
Serbia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
nAtO iS a dEfEnSive alLiAnCe
All NATO assets and NATO countries and all offensive operations or aiding NATO members imperialist invasions with help of training or logistics.
NATO is just a military organisation made to help US imperialism.
This is what I'm talking about. They larp as a defensive organisation made to protect each other from invasion yet their entire history is spent aiding each other during their individual imperialist campaigns. I'm honestly shocked you would even try to defend NATO as being defensive because it's so easily disprovable.
"Some of it is just logistics and training"
It doesn't matter. If Russia was training, arming and assisting a group you wouldn't say "Russia isn't involved" and if thus was a russian and Chinese Military alliance doing this. Please don't ruin this discussion and lie and say you wouldn't mind or would have nothing against it. You'd call it out for what it would be. A fucking imperialist organisation larping as a defensive group.
Tell me what would you do as America ? If you want to know what the US would do, just look back at what happened with Cuba, Venezuela and Grenada. If this was a genuine situation the US would have fully invaded Mexico at even the first hint of Russian or Chinese involvement.
Back to Ukraine. I've watched it all and been watching Patrick Lancaster and Eva Barnett and know all about Ukrainian atrocities, if the coup government just gave the people of donbas the right to hold a referendum, none of this would have happened, and they do have a right to a referendum, when the democratically elected president is removed without public consent, then that warrants it, but they know large Oblasts would vote to leave, was actually living in Sevastopol celebrating when we won the vote to join Russia, you watch from a screen, you were not there, you've never been harassed by police because you speak Russian, you've never had armed far right militias going through your town raping women and torturing people and killing because you're either russian or support Russia and the police doing absolutely nothing, you've never had to change your name because the government bans your language, for example if you were called Vladimir you could get in trouble for not changing it to ukranianization volodymyr, you've never had to sit and watch as your neighbours celebrate the birthday of nazi collaborator stepan Bandera in street matches and shout ”Slava Ukraini” which was the slogan of UPA, the group of Stepan Bandera and the SS galezian division who commited the volhynia genocide, a genocide so Brutal and sadistic that even the Nazis disapproved, Nazis would exterminate you in an industrial manner, banderites and galezian forces would rape little girls, then butcher them in front of loved ones, they'd burn families alive, butcher pregnant women and skin sons in front of their fathers. Over 100,000 people, mostly poles but some Czechs, Hungarians, Russians and pro Soviet Ukrainians were subject to such Horrors and these goofball liberals are shouting the slogan of this group.
This is similar to what groups like Azov, Farbota and C14 did to the civilians in donbas all backed up the Ukrainian state
All zelensky had to do was adhere to Minsk agreements, give Donetsk and Lugansk special status until permanent solution can be done and stop bombing and attacks, that it that's all Putin wanted, instead he decided to pursue NATO membership, which would be unacceptable as Ukraine could just go all in and slaughter Donetsk and luhansk and Russia couldn't attack back without triggering article 5 russia is strong but not strong enough to beat NATO, even before this was he just ignored Minsk he ramped up attacks in 2021, the deaths of 8 people including children in Donetsk was the line being drawn, in autumn 2021, amassing troops, T-64s, T-72s, BMPs, 2S1s, BM-21s and supply vehicles next to Crimea and donbas was crossing the line, this is why I despise zelensky, he's a coward who wanted to be remembered as the man who took back donbas, when his Fighters in azovstal steel plant were exhausted and wanted to surrender and he refused saying he won't negotiate with Russia for ceasefire to let them surrender and to keep fighting, I honestly wanted to kill him myself, that's evil incarcerate, thankfully they eventually ignorant him and contacted Russia, but knowing Kiev they were probably throwin in jail for supporting Russia but knowing state of Ukraine military I doubt they're still in jail. The biggest irony is that the clown zelensky wanted to be remembered as the man who re took Crimea, now he'll be remembered as the last full president of Ukraine.
I'm not claiming Russia is some benevolent force, they have their own agenda but Ukrainians aren't being hunted by government backed militias in Russia, Ukrainians aren't systemically oppressed by Russia in Russia, heck many Ukrainians moved to Russia when February 2022 invasion began, the moral view is that there is no good side and both sides have done wrong, real blame lies with Brussels and Washington, they've been stoking this conflict for years, first with EU promising to pay Ukraine debt if it cut ties with Russia and promising EU membership (even though some in EU high command said this was impossible due to high levels of corruption in Ukraine) and the US for promising NATO membership, an organisation that has no point existing other than the destruction of Russia and both these nations have been supplying and training Ukrainian government to fight donbas freedom fighters.
“Russia has no right to just invade a country for even if it's to protect a group”
It's funny how NATO can intervene in Serbia and just create a referendum and create a breakaway state or intervene in Libya and absolutely destroy the country. Yet when Russia does it it's illegal and not valid and fake, honestly the hypocrisy of the west is limitless, especially when they talk about Imperialism, when the US is the most imperialist country on earth or talk about brutality yet will support Israel which is one of if not the most barbaric countries on earth.
That's why I support the people of Donetsk and luhansk, I support Ukraine defending it's homeland and Russia liberating those two regions, adviivka is getting close to being encircled so hope it's fast as that city was the staging post for most of not all rocket and artillery strikes on Donetsk, countless innocent people killed by them but I forgot that's rUsSiAn pRoPagAndA, you'll never know because you haven't lived it but watch all vice Russian roulette series, watch newsnight on far right militias in Ukraine and especially watch Patrick Lancaster and Eva Barnett, they have much first hand proof of Kiev's brutality.
Back to the war, we just want peace, Ukrainian and Russian people are sisters and brothers, and the United States and the European Union are the enemy.
Russia will never give up, Ukraine has a right to defend its homeland but when you break agreements, systemically oppress ethnic russians and celebrate literal Nazis who committed genocide against russians as your national hero then you lose any rights to play victim, Russia isn't the good guy and neither is Ukraine, both are far more moral than the United States in terms of death and suffering caused.
The worst is the people who call Russia evil yet defend the USA, that level of hypocrisy or ignorance is god level.
Part 3. History of Ukraine nazism
They will try to downplay the harmful effects of Ukraines fascist legislation
Another thing that's not brought up is what Ukraine would do to the people in DPR if they took it back. Poroshenko was literally on video saying they would have their pensions removed, literally just human rights violations.
Or maybe they could rename more stuff
Or maybe they could do this
Even Ukrainian groups thought these laws were harsh and knew it would just cause more division
https://youtu.be/JgCmu8pDejg?si=MtMtxjIbD1ahsXwY
Banning parties ? Seems pretty fascist to me
https://youtu.be/biUri4nihrk?si=WTfRMEuYdLg4qS6S
https://youtu.be/Rce4QYf42bU?si=qQcfB_g4Gg5jofih
Arresting people for celebrations of victory against nazi Germany (that's illegal)
https://youtu.be/oFpqnJR0rpE?si=lVJm56WI5cyqaWmG
Banning of language? Yep listening to some of stories it's hilarious when people try to claim as though Ukraine was one
https://youtu.be/l63W7B6VcG8?si=bEGrpmg8QcMW_eCN
https://youtu.be/kUe5vW8UM6M?si=ioHCb0_2vaFaNkFM
https://youtu.be/oD3gLuYZ3EU?si=p4wYFDrhJSHpuxSn
Arresting people for being pro Russia?
https://youtu.be/U565KYdm5QI?si=akCDLQ9-xE5RHhmB
https://youtu.be/uRuDwuv36z4?si=KWnTHxFwopEcrmRF
at 4:00 to 5:40 the government removes any monuments that are even remotely connected to Russia, not just communists and renames anything connected to Russia.
https://youtu.be/uu8XBBurqHg?si=P9iXTY8sbqcJyzTp&utm_source=MTQxZ
Remember these are the guys who just want peace. Remember you are supposedly an anti war Liberal. So tell me why you think doing this stuff is acceptable when your country is divided along pro Russia and pro EU lines and ESPECIALLY when Russia is right next door watching all this.
Can you show me Russia doing the same? Or heck even Donetsk ? No you can't. Proof ?
5:45 to 6:02
https://youtu.be/uu8XBBurqHg?si=P9iXTY8sbqcJyzTp&utm_source=MTQxZ
Meanwhile Ukraine has state funded marches of literal nazis.
https://youtu.be/rL1qHjoeNi4?si=61qffvGi7XXEpuam&utm_source=MTQxZ
https://youtu.be/TEY-h-pVDIQ?si=AZU1qH7TIzo14bF6&utm_source=MTQxZ
https://youtu.be/ajd7X3fVsGw?si=0C5FbaA09hd6p_ns&utm_source=MTQxZ
https://youtu.be/kIvZUD8jiHE?si=FGRZtrxcsCAA079-&utm_source=MTQxZ
Children being armed and trained by neo nazi militias
https://youtu.be/xqZilokMVJI?si=va-hkNOdvYuAPIfr&utm_source=MTQxZ
https://youtu.be/YR5TZnFZ4tg?si=1RTZSnoNhRv5uWjC&utm_source=MTQxZ
https://youtu.be/CpV16BQfbrQ?si=4a3nIyrak4VulbEr&utm_source=MTQxZ
https://youtu.be/jiBXmbkwiSw?si=rS6QC_6P-96-n1AF&utm_source=MTQxZ
https://youtu.be/_iucL_Bi8c4?si=FRiy7w2nNduXkrgT&utm_source=MTQxZ
Radio free propaganda showing yet again they are a 24/7 clown show by claiming bandera fought Germany and Soviets for Ukrainian freedom
https://youtu.be/mrAQUvYvjLE?si=s_uLLK1GTip0UwlG&utm_source=MTQxZ
Literal SS March and anthem
https://youtu.be/HlX-VZK0Jbo?si=erlPG_b35ehQF0c2&utm_source=MTQxZ
At 7:00 to 8:30 HUGE proliferation of government and civilian backed nazi symbols
https://youtu.be/uu8XBBurqHg?si=z7aVbke8MFIsfTKD&utm_source=MTQxZ
Here are some
A common excuse we hear is "these are just terror tactics"
Like this whopper.
"We use nazi iconography to scare nazis"
I don't even need to explain the retardation in that statement.
Ukraine has completely rewritten its past. Historically Ukraine, Russian and Belarusian (among others) were all one. They were all part of the Russian empire and it wasn't until the soviet Union under Lenin that more autonomy was given to the regions. (Granted stalin did undo a lot but that was reversed under khrushchev and liberals or banderites will say Ukraine had independence in WWI, no it was a puppet state run by Britain to weaken the communists)
https://youtu.be/dObF7xawkCI?si=I8MZqP5dM7jHki2A&utm_source=MTQxZ
Ukraine literally has a LANGUAGE ombudsman 😂 literally language police, to force schools, workplaces, churches etc to use Ukrainian language not Russian.
https://mova-ombudsman.gov.ua/en
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_ombudsman_(Ukraine)
"This is just to promote use of Ukrainian"
Is that why the use of Russian is PUNISHABLE
They literally have language patrols that go around beating people up for speaking Russian, playing Russian music or anything in russusn.
https://112.ua/en/movnij-patrul-v-ivano-frankivsku-mer-rozpoviv-hto-slidkuvatime-za-mistanami-44299
8:50 to 9:43
https://youtu.be/uu8XBBurqHg?si=ZdhoVTF9ALVh5khy&utm_source=MTQxZ
What's crazy is supposed western "fact checkers" call this Russian propaganda despite being easy to find.
I mean easily findable. Famous Ukrainian actor says to BEAT CHILDREN with a ROD JUST for speaking Russian
Ukrainian military commander on state run TV says children should be ready to be in army along with how Ukraine brainwashes and radicalises children to hate Russia and how Ukraine uses children (remember those kids who were getting trained by nazi banderites) in its military industrial complex
10:30 to 12:15
https://youtu.be/uu8XBBurqHg?si=Hv_HKks8LjfQVD4A&utm_source=MTQxZ
Again. You are an anti war Liberal. HOW is this shit acceptable? Russian is the NATIVE language. Ukrainian is just a dialect of RUSSIAN exact same as Belarusian.
"They just want to cut ties with Russia"
You have a civil war because of masses of people being pro Russia and you think this is a good idea. AGAIN if Russia was doing this don't you dare try and pretend you would support it.
"There are no pro Russian Ukrainians"
There you have it. Back to the delusional conspiracy theories that we already debunked.
I will also post sources on how it's the same stuff the nazis did
Ukrainian state backed marches of literal nazis
Ukraine banning languages and anything tied to Russian culture
Ukraine removing any monuments even remotely tied to Russia
https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2002/summer/nazi-looted-art-1
Ukraine teaching kids nazi bandera ideology in schools
State backed nazi banderite militias training children with military weapons (then videos I gave you of the children being used during Ukraine's war as checkpoint guards literally asking people to speak to make sure they don't speak Russian)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth
Language and cultural officials punishing people for using anything tied to Russian culture or language
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zsvhk7h/revision/2
Ukraine Banning any pro or even tied to Russia parties like socialist parties
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/law-against-the-founding-of-new-parties
This is nazi shit and Russia isn't doing it. And its fucking scary when I see this all written down because the similarities between the two are fucking so obvious and blatant. So I genuinely don't know how you can look at all that stuff and say either there's no problem or even worse try to justify it. If this was being done to Ukrainians in Donetsk you would call it wrong and it would be wrong. Even though they have even half decent reason due to the constant air strikes and shelling that killed thousands of civilians by Ukrainian Armed forces and atrocities committed by groups like Azov, Farbota and C14 that were armed and let loose by Ukraine.
The UN says there's no nazism because its not national Socialism it's bandera ideology which is a form of nazism no different to zionism because it holds views of Racial superiority for one group and racial inferiority in another.
This is why I FULLY support Russia securing DPR and LPR and keeping Crimea. Because of Ukraine's actions against donbas and their ideology against Russians. These are the only areas Russia has any moral high ground in invading and were the only places they wanted during talks in 2019, 2021 and 2022 but since Ukraine started their counter offensive and made their intentions on wanting crimes back I think Russia wants a buffer zone between Crimea and Ukraine. It's not right, it's pure imperialism but I understand it and blame zelensky for the reasons I've already explained.
Like this shit is not acceptable, I guarantee you liberals give Russia shit for how it treats LGBT people yet are pretty silent on this shit. Suppressing cultures or language when it has no justification is fascist shit.
Let's go over the ideology and history of banderism and the modern iteration of nazi ideology in ukraine. Taken from MFA.
Modern Ukrainian nationalism / Nazism dates back to the early 1990s. Nazi proponents and social engineering technologies "exported" to Ukraine, which became an independent state, contributed to it.
Historical background. The history of Ukrainian nationalism is the history of the confrontation between the Ukrainian nationalism of the Great (Dnieper) Ukraine and the nationalism of Galicia of Austro-Hungarian origin. It began before World War I. First and foremost, it lead to political confrontation between the Ukrainian People's Republic and the West Ukrainian People's Republic in 1918-1920 (the leader of the UPR Symon Petliura actually betrayed the WUPR after he concluded an alliance with Poland at the expense of the former); secondly, it developed into a dispute between the Petliura and Bandera's supporters, which resulted in the victory of Galician nationalism in the post-Soviet Ukraine. Galicia (the former historical region of Galician Rus, which was part of the Austrian and then Austro-Hungarian Empire from 1772 to 1918) got a de facto monopoly on ideology and became the center where most of the "old" nationalist parties and organizations were established and remains (along with Volhynia) the main electoral base for Ukrainian nationalism. The genesis of organized (party) Ukrainian nationalism / Nazism also goes back to the Galician versions. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) was founded in 1929 and initially existed as a single organization. After the murder of its leader Eugene Konovalets by Pavel Sudoplatov, it split (in 1940) into the warring Bandera's and Melnikov's factions (OUN-B or OUN-R (revolutionary) and OUN-M). In July 1919, Eastern Galicia and Western Volhynia became part of the Polish state and were subject to Polonization. That is why the OUN had a radical anti-Polish position. It also endorsed a pro-German geopolitical and pro-Nazi ideological approach during the chairmanship of Eugene Konovalets. After the split of the OUN both factions had the same mindset. Even before Hitler came to power, close ties were established between Ukrainian nationalists and the NSDAP; OUN activists studied in the party schools of the German Nazis. Subsequently, the intelligence services of Hitler's Germany took patronage over the OUN factions: Abwehr military intelligence – over the OUN-b, Sicherheitsdienst (SD, SS Security Service) – over the Melnikov's faction. For instance, the commander of the OUN-UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army), the military wing of the OUN-B, Roman Shukhevych was Hauptmann of the Abwehr and was deputy commanding officer of the punitive and sabotage unit "Nachtigal" established by the Nazis in occupied Poland. A number of OUN ideologists and leaders openly called Ukrainian nationalism a part of the European fascist movement. It is important to note: The OUN gravitated not to Italian fascism (the doctrine of the corporate state), but to German National Socialism with its racial theory. Therefore, like the Croatian Ustaše, the OUN is a version of National Socialism with its genocidal practices of solving the national question. Ukrainian nationalists had no state of their own, and they received social support from illiterate villagers. Galicia and Volhynia, the two centers of Ukrainian nationalism, were backward regions dependent on agriculture. It is important to note that Poles and Jews represented the upper class of the social and cultural hierarchy in the more urbanized Galicia. Thus, Ukrainian nationalism, which developed imitating German National Socialism, emerged in a culturally backward and agrarian environment and served as an ideological and political basis for ethnic revenge.
Like the Croatian Ustaše, the OUN linked territorial expansion to the issue of ethnic "purity." All peoples were divided into "friendly" and "unfriendly". The Jews, Poles, Russians, Hungarians (in the terminology of Ukrainian nationalists – Zhyds, Lyakhs, Muscals, and Magyars) occupied the "leading" positions among the latter. The former were to be evicted from the territory of Ukraine, while the latter were to be subject to violent acts, which were "justified" theoretically and exercised routinely.
On 30 June 1941, the day after the Red Army left Lvov, Bandera's proponents proclaimed the Ukrainian state under the leadership of Yaroslav Stetsko. Close cooperation with Hitler's Great Germany was proclaimed. After that, the first punitive action to implement the program of the OUN-R in the sphere of national policy began: The extermination of the Polish and Jewish population of Lvov. Historians estimate that the number of Jewish victims between 30 June and July 2 and on July 25 was 4.000-5.000 people. The number of Polish victims is considerably lower in quantitative terms (a few dozen people), but affected the Polish cultural and scientific elite: Ukrainian nationalists literally hanged Polish professors from street lamps. It was decided to create the UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) led by Roman Shukhevych (call sign: Tasras Chuprinka) at the third conference of the OUN-B in February 1943. It was also decided to radically solve the Polish question. This was the start of the Volyn Massacre – the extermination of the Polish population in the region. The Polish Sejm and Senate recognized the Volhynia Massacre as an act of genocide of the Polish people in 2016. 17 July is commemorated annually as a day of remembrance for the Polish victims. In total, between 30,000 and 60,000 Poles were exterminated during the Volhynia Massacre, which was carried out by both factions of the OUN and Bulba-Borovets' Polissian Sich. The total number of Polish people who fell pray to Ukrainian nationalists in Galicia and Volhynia alone is up to 200.000. In addition, Ukrainian nationalists, being part of punitive units in the service of the Wehrmacht and SD police units, destroyed hundreds of Belarusian villages and hamlets. Ukrainian nationalists from the OUN-M burned the Belarusian village of Khatyn with its inhabitants.
At the end of the war and immediately after its conclusion, many fighters and activists of the OUN-B and OUN-M shielded themselves from retribution in the United States and Canada. This would have been impossible without the support and direct sanction of the state authorities in the USA and Great Britain. After the collapse of the USSR, the US ruling circles "exported" Nazi proponents and social engineering technologies back to Ukraine and ensured that they entered the scientific and educational area. At the same time, the party structures of Bandera's and Melnikov's supporters were reestablished.
Thus, modern Ukrainian Nazism has ideological and organizational continuity from Hitler's collaborators of World War II, the executioners of Volyn and Khatyn.
Organized Ukrainian nationalism/Nazism in post-Soviet Ukraine.
Let us briefly list the organizational structures of the successor organizations of OUN-B and OUN-M in post-Soviet Ukraine. We will tentatively call them "old nationalists".
This generation / direction is represented by two groups of parties – parliamentary and of direct action. The parliamentary type includes:
- The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) – (Bandera's or "revolutionary" wings) and
- Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists (once part of the electoral bloc "Our Ukraine") – a party to pass into parliament (was created on the basis of the OUN);
- Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) – Andrey Melnyk's faction;
- All-Ukrainian organization Svoboda, whose program is based on the principle of "national democracy", i.e. democracy only for Ukrainians.
Parties and organizations of the direct action type include:
- The Ukrainian National Assembly political party (after its charismatic leader Dmitry Korchynsky left it), which has a paramilitary wing called the Ukrainian National Self-Defense. Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self-Defense (UNA-UNSD) then found itself fragmented into a number of organizations. It has long lacked the strength it had in the 1990s and early 2000s.
The role of UNA-UNSD is also characterized by the fact that in the 1990s and early 2000s it served as an instrument of external expansion and performed the tasks assigned by the Ukrainian military intelligence service (GUR MO) – so it was what is now called a proxy force. This was the case during the Transnistria conflict. But the most obvious external activity of the UNA-UNSD manifested itself in anti-Russian actions: The war in Abkhazia on the side of Georgia, the two Chechen wars, and the conflict in South Ossetia.
The participation of UNA-UNSD militants, a proxy force of Ukrainian military intelligence, in two military conflicts on the territory of Russia (Chechen Republic), their participation (along with Ukrainian special forces and other military specialists) in Georgia's attack on Russian peacekeepers in August 2008 allows us to highlight Russian-Ukrainian relations in a different way. At least three times and in a limited way Ukraine invaded Russian territory and participated in acts of aggression against Russian servicemen – soldiers of the peacekeeping battalion in Tskhinvali.
- The "Trident named after Stepan Bandera" public organization, which was founded on the initiative of the OUN-R and had a reputation of the most radical nationalist force in the 1990s-2000s. Dmitry Yarosh, the self‑proclaimed leader of the Right Sector organization, an association of Ukrainian nationalists of the Euromaidan, made his name in the Trident. It is noteworthy: Trident's ideological development has stopped at the level of the 1940s, which has been the subject of scathing and mocking remarks from their rivals among the "New Right";
- Social National Party of Ukraine, which served as the basis for the All‑Ukrainian organization "Svoboda" (with its leader Oleg Tyahnybok); the Youth Nationalist Congress, and a number of other organizations.
Various structures of "old nationalists" are in favor of redrawing the existing borders and "returning" lands with Ukrainian ethnic population to Ukraine. Ukrainian nationalists have territorial claims to all neighbors of Ukraine, including Poland, who is the main ally and lobbyist of Ukraine in the EU (historical lands of Ancient Rus – Podlachia, Chełm Land, the Lemko Region, etc.). But the most large-scale territorial claims are against Russia: territories of the Lower Don (or the entire Don), "Ukrainian" Kuban (in 1792, Russian Empress Catherine the Great granted the Cossacks of the Faithful Black Sea Troops, whom Ukrainian propaganda considers to be Ukrainians, lands in the Kuban, which were earlier reclaimed from the Ottoman Empire). The old slogan "to return the lands "from San to Don", included in the anthem of Ukraine, is shared by all groups of Ukrainian nationalists. However, some go even further in their territorial claims and demand to "return" to Ukraine the lands of the so-called Grey and Green Ukraines – the territories of settlers (migrants) from the Malorossiya provinces of the Russian Empire who moved to the Southwestern Siberia and the Far East, respectively.
The "New Right", another generation / direction of Ukrainian nationalism / Nazism, are represented by the following structures:
Dmitry Korchinsky's organizations: UNA-UNSD in the 1990s, Brotherhood in the 2000s;
The Kharkov-based "Patriot of Ukraine", a paramilitary wing of the Social National Assembly, as well as a number of ideologically close organizations.
During the period of the so-called Euromaidan, a number of organizations close to the Patriot of Ukraine emerged and conducted activities, which can be rather attributed to the racist camp than to traditional Ukrainian nationalists ("White Hammer" and others).
The geographical (civilizational) aspect of Ukrainian nationalism deserves separate consideration. Lvov, the "Piedmont of Ukrainian nationalism", was also the intellectual center of the "old nationalism". However, the demographic, economic, and intellectual resources of Galicia were no match for the Russian language and culture of the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine – the historical Slobozhanshchyna (part of the Moscow (Russian) state since 1500) and Novorossiya (joined the Russian Empire after the victories of the Russian Imperial Army during the 18th century). In the new historical conditions, the dispute between Bandera and Petliura's proponents – western and eastern Ukrainian nationalists – has been revived. In the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, historical Novorossiya, the socio-cultural environment was different: Urban population was developed and educated; major urban centers emerged and developed rapidly: Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa. Kiev, Russian in language and culture, should also be included here. The activists of Ukrainian nationalist movements in these regions came from among soccer ultras.
The most interesting example is the public organization "Patriot of Ukraine", established in Kharkov in 2005. The genesis of this organization dates back to the Social Nationalist Party of Ukraine (SNPU), which was the most radical nationalist organization in the 1990s. The SNPU structure included the youth paramilitary wing Patriot of Ukraine, whose name and logo were adopted by Kharkov and Donetsk nationalists. Kharkov, the first capital of Soviet Ukraine, has always had a special status; it is the second most populous city in Ukraine. Special literature in Russian was prepared for the Patriot of Ukraine, and Russian was the working language of the organization.
The leader of Patriot of Ukraine was Andrey Biletskyi, the future founder and first commander of the Azov battalion/regiment and its "subsidiary" units, a historian by education. He is referred to by the honorable nickname White Leader in the Nazi milieu. He had been an activist of Ukrainian nationalist organizations ("Trident named after Stepan Bandera"), until he established the above-mentioned public organization "Patriot of Ukraine" – a military wing of the Social National Assembly ("twisted" name of Hitler's National Socialism). Andrey Biletskyi and the main ideologies of the Patriot of Ukraine, historian Oleg Odnorozhenko, were arrested during Yanukovych's presidency and released after the victory of Euromaidan. After his release from prison, Biletsky immediately engaged in military, political and public activities. He and his associates from the Patriot of Ukraine managed to form one of the most combat‑ready (primarily in terms of motivation) units of the Ukrainian Army / National Guard, which gained valuable combat experience in many key battles of the war in Donbass. "Azov", which became world famous, was captured during the battles for Mariupol in May 2022. The unit is currently being rebuilt.
Military and intelligence area:
According to some reports, when the Patriot of Ukraine was active, close contacts were established with military intelligence (GUR of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine) and the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU). Training of militants (so-called "vyshkyls") of the PoU was conducted with the help of paratrooper officers and special forces and included a full course for young fighters. As a result, Kharkov neo-Nazis turned out to be the most prepared volunteer fighters to participate in combat operations.
Regular improvement of combat training and establishment of necessary contacts with officers of the UAF and SBU. Andrey Biletskyi and his entourage clandestinely promote the following idea: The regime of "internal occupation" (illegitimate presidents – Petro Poroshenko and Vladimir Zelensky) will not last forever. Security, defense and law enforcement agencies need their own man in power, and better – at the head of the state. Andrey Biletsky, the "White Leader", aspires to play this role.
Establish contacts with representatives of foreign (primarily American) special services and officers from the armies of NATO countries operating in Ukraine, as well as numerous mercenaries and volunteers from neo-Nazi circles in Europe and Western countries. The goal is to create and strengthen foreign ties with a view to the future.
Targeted public work of this force, which is done professionally, should be highlighted. Along with military and paramilitary structures, the Patriot of Ukraine members have created their own party, the National Corps, and a number of civil organizations, including labor unions. The goal is to go beyond the narrow confines of the nationalist electorate. This is the same kind of work Adolf Hitler did in the 1920s struggling for the votes of the German proletariat.
The "New Right" or Social Nationalists are a force with strategic thinking. Andrey Biletskyi, the White Leader of the Ukrainian and European Nazis, in response to the question what he considers his greatest achievement, named not the creation of the "Azov" battalion / regiment and the party National Corps, but children's camps.
Ideologically and intellectually, the "New Right" is a qualitatively different force than the "old nationalists" whom Social Nationalists openly despise ("idiots from Trident"). Social nationalists directly appeal to the original German National Socialism, rather than to its outdated Ukrainian epigones – Bandera's and Melnikov's proponents, etc. The intellectual "library" of these structures also includes the achievements of modern Western neo-Nazis and racists. Social Nationalists, however, did not break with the old symbols and added the "heroes of OUN-UPA" into their pantheon – the "nation" needs its "heroes". But the main idea is an imitation of German National Socialism and its development. The main hero is Hitler, not Bandera.
Geopolitical aspirations of the Ukrainian Social Nationalists are much larger, and their horizon of thinking is wider than the provincial imperialism of the "old" nationalists of Galicia. The latter dream of a "great Ukraine" "from San to Don" (or to the Caspian Sea), that is, of redrawing borders in Europe, including at the expense of the "ally" Poland. These plans demonstrate their political utopianism, but at the same time the narrowness of their political horizons. The plans of the Social Nationalists are much grander: Establishment of a Central European confederation (of course, under the aegis of Ukraine) of racially pure states with an eye on Western Europe. This new force will exercise control over all of Eurasia, and thus over the world. This is nothing but the return of Adolf Hitler's geopolitical aspirations from political oblivion.
So the "old nationalists" want a Great Ukraine for Ukrainians. The New Right (Social Nationalists) want the Great White Eurasia with the center in Ukraine under the rule of the White Leader.
Russia and the world do not understand the nature of modern Ukrainian Nazism. The world (the West) prefers not to notice it and to stigmatize any considerations concerning this problem as "Russian propaganda". Russia struggles with old phantoms, still perceiving modern Ukrainian Nazis as Bandera's proponents. The thinking of "old nationalists" is fundamentally not even provincial – it is khutor-wide. During the war in Donbass, fighters of Ukrainian Nazi battalions from Galicia really dreamed of making slaves out of local "inferior" inhabitants.
The Bandera's proponents have not disappeared, but have yielded the palm of victory to a more dynamic and powerful force – the new Nazism, which has developed in the urban centers of the east and south part of today's Ukraine, with Russian urban culture as well as the propensity and ability to think in terms of the whole world.
The above explains why Ukraine has become the mecca of Europe and, in general, all neo-Nazis in the world. "Old nationalists" with their miserable cult of political losers such as Bandera and Shukhevych could not interest neo-Nazis in Europe or North America. The structures that grew out of the Patriot of Ukraine in Kharkov are completely different. The ideas of white racism, a kind of racist globalism, the rejection of narrow ethnic boundaries (ideological neo-Nazis from the Russian Federation also fight on the side of the Azov regiment), a very modernist ideology aimed at the future, and, finally, the charismatic figure of the White Leader Biletskiy – all together had predetermined the popularity of the Azov regiment and its subsidiaries among racists and neo-Nazis around the world.
Along with the "old nationalism" (Bandera's proponents) and the Social Nationalism which developed on the basis of the Kharkov-based Patriot of Ukraine, there is another kind of Ukrainian Nazism. Its source is the Ukrainian public authorities. After the coup d'état on 21 February 2014, carried out by the US, UK and a number of EU countries, the state of Ukraine as such does not exist. It is more correct to speak about the state in Ukraine. Ukraine as a state has been abolished and is under external administration. State institutions responsible for ideology and education have adopted the slogans and ideologies of the Ukrainian Nazis: For example, the greeting "Glory to Ukraine!" adopted by the UPA is now officially used in the Ukrainian army. Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych are officially included in the list of heroes. The state authorities in Ukraine are pursuing a policy of Nazification, many provisions of which are borrowed from the programs of the OUN. Such as:
- Cultural and educational policy of post-Maidan Ukraine, aimed at the complete eradication of the languages of indigenous peoples and national minorities of Ukraine and, mainly, Russians – the people who did establish Ukrainian statehood along with the Ukrainians themselves.
- Complete subordination of the church to the state, banning of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) and creation of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine which is schismatic in its essence. These acts should also be qualified in the spirit of the Nazi formula "One country, one people, one language, one church".
In fact, the state in Ukraine has officially banned the right to existence of the canonical Orthodox Church and the Russian people ("there are no Russian minorities in Ukraine" – said speaker of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine Ruslan Stefanchuk).
Here is another case which demonstrates how people in Russia misunderstand the phenomenon of modern Ukrainian Nazism: The Ukrainian nation is referred to as if it existed, whereas the Ukrainian nation is a project, something to be created. By the way, the most far-sighted Ukrainian nationalists understand this. It is not by chance that there is no room for primitive Russophobia in the ideology of the Azov regiment and the National Corps. On the contrary, there is a struggle for the support of Russians, which is not surprising: Many of the Azov's leaders are Russians. It's just that Russians are suggested to dissolve into the "Nation of Heroes" – a Ukrainian nation being constructed from various parts.
The construction of the Ukrainian nation is under way in today's Ukraine. And it is being created thanks to ... Russia. The special military operation was the catalyst of this process. The foundation of the Ukrainian nation, the "Nation of heroes", is not only and not so much the low-literate farmers of Galicia and the villagers of Volhynia, but also Russian-speaking inhabitants of Kiev, Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk, who know Russian culture. And their hatred for Russians is all the stronger because by blood and language we are one people. As one would be answering the question: "Why do you hate us so much?", the character in the novel by the Serbian writer Vuk Drašković said, - "Because we are you."
Social engineering technologies used by the state authorities in Ukraine are also aimed at the creation of a new, artificial Ukrainian nation. However, one can hardly doubt that both the strategic plan and technologies were created not by Ukrainians, but in the "laboratories" of the United States. "Bricks" of the foundation for the creation of this nation are Russians and other indigenous peoples as well as national minorities of Ukraine.
So, in modern Ukraine there are (or rather, coexist) varieties of Ukrainian Nazism: "old nationalists" (notionally Bandera's proponents), the New Right or Social Nationalists, and finally, Nazi practices of the state authorities in Ukraine. "Ukrainian Nazism" is a more accurate term than "Ukrainian nationalism." The symbolic date of the death of Ukrainian "nationalism" (if it had even existed before) was 2 May 2014, when the Trade Unions building in Odessa was burned down. Official number of victims was 48. Applying the term "nationalists" to Ukrainian followers of Hitler and SS means moral compromise with absolute evil and an incorrect method of categorizing ideological and political phenomena.
We would also like to emphasize: The rise of Nazism in Ukraine and the already accomplished transformation of this country into the epicenter of world Nazism/neo-Nazism is no longer a factor of internal Ukrainian politics or even Russian-Ukrainian relations. This is an important aspect of pan-European, and perhaps even world, politics. Even Russia's victory on the battlefields of the "so-called" special military operation will not lead to a complete destruction of this dangerous force. The post-war existence of the surviving OUN structures (with the active support of the intelligence and government agencies of the United States, Great Britain and NATO) supports this prediction. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian New Right (Social Nationalists) have incomparably greater demographic and intellectual resources.
The expansion of Ukrainian Social Nationalism will not necessarily be conducted under Ukrainian slogans. The certain popularity of Ukrainian Nazism among the Russian far-right may be explained by the flexibility and adaptability of this movement to the conditions of a new environment. Instead of Ukrainian nationalism, white racism and even Pan-Slavism may come to the forefront. That is why it is so important to conduct a targeted study of this phenomenon.
Let's go over the famous azov.
Western propaganda presented the defenders of Mariupol as heroic martyrs, but every day it becomes harder to do so. They have been involved in the murder and brutal torture of women and children. The Azov Battalion is a symbol of hell and years of terror for the people of Donbass.
Hell in a Library
"They hung me by my legs, hit me on the head, torso, limbs, made me regain consciousness with water, and shot me near my left ear", reads the medical records of Mariupol resident Tatiana Ganja.
On 30 October 2014, Ganja was detained in Mariupol by five men in military uniform with Azov Battalion chevrons and balaclavas. Already in a car, they beat her with their guns and urinated on her. They took her out of her car, kicked her, and fired a volley of shots over her head. They took her to Mariupol airport, where they carried on torturing her until 8 November. After that, they took her to court and a pre-trial detention centre.
Tatiana was a member of the Communist Party of Ukraine, now outlawed in the country. She took part in protest rallies in Mariupol and the 11 May referendum over the future of the Donetsk region. She was not even aware that she was blacklisted as an "intransigent separatist".
In March 2019 during a press conference in Moscow, former officer of Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU) Vasily Prozorov spoke about "The Library": a secret prison at Mariupol airport, a city controlled by the Azov Battalion. The "Library" contained "books", the name given to captured DPR militia members and ordinary citizens "suspected of separatism". They were tortured there. The place had two disconnected refrigerated cells with sealed doors and no furniture. Prozorov showed photographs of nine prisoners from the "Library" - among them were a teenager in a khaki t-shirt and two old men. All of them showed signs of beatings.
Azov survivors also confirmed his declarations to Sputnik.
Former "Library" inmate Tatiana Ganja described the prison as a "real hell and place of death".
"I cannot describe all the horrors. The bridge of my nose is broken and my left ear can't hear. It's really hard to remember. I won't recount everything... Nevertheless, it was the UAF [Ukrainian Armed Forces] boy who took me to the toilet in that corridor and told me that two days before, a girl had been beaten to death here, also called Tatiana", she explains.
On 8 November 2014, Ganja was taken from the airport for investigative actions. She was released following a prisoner exchange between Ukraine and the Donetsk People's Republic on 26 December. Since then, she has been living in Donetsk in one of the dormitories for refugees. Azov looted her home in Mariupol.
"The Azov members took everything: my heating system, windows, and doors". In his declarations, Prozorov also said that members of the "volunteer battalions" sent home any appliances, even microwaves with dried-up sandwiches inside, as trophies.
One day, Elena Blokha, a journalist from Mariupol, also found herself in the "Library’s ‘fridge"".
"[I was] In a room 3x1.5 metres, lined with white tiles (it looked like a warehouse), there was only one chair, on which a girl with a pale face was sitting. ‘Don't close the door, please!’, she pleaded, turning to the young man. ‘Be patient. You have to be strong’, he replied in a mockingly affectionate manner and shut the door tightly. It went completely dark and very stuffy. Apparently, there was no ventilation", she described.
They detained Blokha along with her son and placed him in a male cell with several other prisoners.
"Some of them, according to my son, were badly beaten. One could even see broken ribs sticking out, another's legs were broken... What kind of people they were and what happened to them afterwards, I don't know, I can only imagine".
Azov: The Beginning
In April 2014, after the Maidan triumph and when a street war between supporters and opponents [of Maidan] broke out in all major cities in southeastern Ukraine, the then-Acting President Oleksandr Turchynov announced an Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO) in Donbass. While the ATO was started in order to form "volunteer battalions", these batallions later became infamous for their atrocities against civilians and captured militia members.
The Azov Battalion was officially established on 5 May 2014 in the Kharkov neo-Nazi organisation Patriots of Ukraine*, the power wing of the Social-National Assembly. The "patriots" opened their first congress in 1999 with a torchlit procession similar to the marches seen in Hitler's Germany.
The unit of 50-60 fighters possessed several smooth bore rifles and traumatic pistols. The head of the press service, Stepan Baida, described the Azov's level of equipment at the time as "reinforced troops".
The Black Corps patches, which directly allude to Reichsführer SS Himmler's military ("Das Schwarze Korps", translated from the German as "Black Corps", the official printed media of the SS), continued to be used by the Azov even after its incorporation into legal ranks commanded by the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
At first, it was a deemed a volunteer battalion in the Special Tasks Patrol Police of Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs. Then, in October 2014, it became a regiment of the National Guard. As a military unit, Azov was authorised to acquire artillery and tanks.
Mariupol Massacre
The presence of Azov became fatal for the residents of Mariupol long before 2022. What happened there in the spring of 2014 was the most important episode of the Donbass conflict.
"In the morning, the Azov men in black uniforms, carrying weapons, [and] in columns of cars drove through [the city]. This show of force was meant to show that Mariupol was and remains a Ukrainian city", Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to the interior minister, recalled in a blog on the website of Ukrainska Pravda.
The Victory Day demonstration on 9 May 2014 ended in clashes near the city police headquarters. According to Kiev's official information, 13 people were killed, including police officers, National Guard members and Azov Battalion fighters, as well as civilians.
The local police were sympathetic to the Donetsk People's Republic, but did not take any action against their own superiors or the Ukrainian authorities in general.
A referendum on the independence of the Donetsk People's Republic was scheduled for 11 May 2014. According to Former SBU Lieutenant-Colonel Prozorov, Mariupol police officers received orders to prevent the voting by blocking polling stations and detaining election commission members. However, the majority refused to obey, as they wanted to avoid conflicts with their fellow compatriots, including relatives.
"They are absolutely certain that it was a Kiev provocation. They paid the price for refusing to carry out orders to crack down on the 11 May referendum... The Azov Battalion, Kiev's leaders and representatives of the Interior Ministry tried to stop the insubordination", Prozorov claims.
The list of those killed in Mariupol that day include only police officers, security forces and civilians.
'White Leader'
Andriy Biletsky, a neo-Nazi known as White Leader (a nickname that a civilised person would find absurd which was given to him by his supporters before the Maidan), became Azov's leader. That same year, 2014, he was elected to the Verkhovna Rada [Ukrainian parliament].So what did White Leader do before Azov? Shortly before heading the battalion, Biletsky was released from prison. He was freed from the Kharkov pre-trial detention centre in late February 2014 thanks to Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, who favoured Azov and admitted that he had "special plans" for the unit.
Biletsky and his accomplices were imprisoned on charges of assaulting Sergei Kolesnik, who, as a result of an incident, sustained open skull and brain injuries and multiple stab wounds. The case was opened under the article of "robbery".
The reason for the attack stemmed from an online argument in which the victim had been careless in speaking out against fascism. Biletsky was arrested and immediately became a "martyr" to the victorious Euromaidan; his detention was seen as political repression.
Biletsky has never concealed his Nazi views. Here are some of his most striking quotes.
On his mission and Jews:
"The challenge of the current generation is to create a Third Empire, the Great Ukraine. The historic mission of our nation in this crucial century is to head and lead the white peoples of the world in a final crusade for their existence, a crusade against Semitic-led sub-humanity".
On blood purity:
"The migrant issue is indeed a key one. Our credo is to destroy everything that destroys our people. As you know, you can restore everything – economy, order in the streets, demography, strong army and navy, nuclear weapons – but the only thing that you cannot restore is blood purity".
On his perception of Nazi collaborators the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA, an extremist organisation banned in Russia):
"It is very unfortunate that Eastern Ukraine even today has a distorted understanding of the UPA".
According to Kharkov journalists, Biletsky's supporters began holding more or less visible actions in the fall of 2005. As early as 14 April 2006, on the anniversary of Koliivshchyna (the Cossack uprising of 1768, which led to a mass slaughter of Poles and Jews), they organised a xenophobic "Ukraine against the occupation" march in the city’s centre. According to various estimates, between 100 and 200 people took part in the rally. This event was followed by actions against the Vietnamese hostels in Kharkov.
Biletsky's unit skillfully recruited or attracted representatives of far-right youth subcultures to join its ranks. The young neo-Nazis were drawn by their focus on violent methods of struggle: beatings, raids and pogroms.
The "vyshkols" - training camps - of the Patriots of Ukraine organisation were completely different from, for example, the [far-right paramilitary organisations] Tryzub of Stepan Bandera (another extremist organisation banned in Russia), the Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists or the Youth Nationalist Congress. In these camps, the organisation held activities for schoolchildren shooting air rifles, marching through forests and singing songs around a campfire. Biletsky, in turn, taught how to storm buildings or "remove" a guardsman from behind (how to strangle and stab him in the heart).
"The backbone of Azov is made up of people who have been involved in 'vyshkols' all their lives. We were preparing for war", Vadym Troyan, then-head of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry's Kiev Region, former deputy commander of the Azov Battalion and now deputy interior minister, told the Leviy Bereg newspaper on 2 December 2014. Between 2005 and 2008, Troyan was in charge of physical training for Patriots of Ukraine members.
The Kharkov branch alone had between 200 and 300 fighters in the early 2010s, some of whom lived permanently in the barracks at the organisation's premises.
Where Did the Money Come From?
The Azov was funded - at least partially - by oligarch Igor Kolomoisky, as was the case with the other volunteer battalions operating in the ATO. Furthermore, Svetlana Zvarich, director of the Ukrainian National Information Service (one of the largest companies in the local information collection, transmission and processing market), provided assistance.
On 16 April 2015, Ukrayinska Pravda mentioned the charity foundation for educational innovations, which officially "works with Azov and provides it with everything it needs" in a report from Azov's base at the ATEK engineering plant in Kiev , citing a comment by "the chairman of the supervisory board of the foundation, Svetlana Zvarich".
But that is not the whole story. On 15 July 2016, the public learned that Azov had links to criminals when SBU Special Forces liquidated a group of Azov officers armed with assault rifles and a grenade launcher in Zaporozhye . They had attacked a money collectors’ car, a raid that was clearly not their first.
SBU Chief Vasyl Hrytsak said at the time that the Secret Service was checking Azov’s involvement in at least ten similar crimes.
Sources later specified to the Russian TV channel Vesti that "Before the New Year (2016 – ed. note), the same gang robbed a jewelry shop in one of the malls early in the morning and killed a shop assistant. And on 28 February, the bandits attacked the jewelry shop again".
There is also knowlegde of a bribe of two million hryvnias ($68,000) extorted from a Kiev businessman by the battalion's head of manning Vladimir Brzezinski and former Azov Chief of Staff Vadym Troyan under threats of reprisals.
In other words, the Azov militia members were simply engaged in racketeering. According to the owner of one of the gambling halls, the so-called patriots showed up in mid-2015. Couriers from local radical organisations visited all the gambling halls, offering to "negotiate".
"The cooperation with the 'patriots' basically means that they do not touch us. And we pay them money for this - 30 to 50 thousand hryvnias a month [$1,020-1,700] from each hall. If we do not pay, a Molotov cocktail will burn down the gambling hall within a week".
'Laboratory of Nazism'
The Azov Battalion stands out for its strong ideological background. Neo-Nazis, anti-Semites and racists are at the forefront of the unit. Its symbols contain elements that refer to the emblems of Third Reich military units.
The photo shows Azov fighters taking the oath of allegiance before being sent to Donbass in July 2014. The regiment's flag bears a black Wolfsangel ("wolf’s hook" in German). This sign was the emblem of Hitler's National Socialist German Workers’ Party (NSDAP). Subsequently, the Wolfsangel became the tactical mark of the SS Panzer Division "Das Reich", and was also used in other SS and Wehrmacht units, in particular, the 34th SS Volunteer Grenadier Division "Landstorm Nederland".
Over time, representatives of the Social National Assembly, Automaidan and Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists activists, ultras (hooligans) of the Dynamo (Kiev) and Shakhtar football clubs, members of Dmytro Korchynsky's Bratstvo party* and the Cossack Rifle Brotherhood joined Azov.
The open demonstration of misanthropy attracted radicals and neo-Nazis from all over the world to join the Azov Battalion.
Biletsky said in an interview that there were representatives of three dozen nationalities in Azov, but "not once did a Chinese or a Nigerian come to them".
The Azov expanded, fought against the Donbass militia, and attracting new volunteers, including foreigners.
A series of video interviews with foreigners associated with the regiment were published on the page of the National Corps and National Druzhina units, both projects set up in 2016 by the Azov.
Alexei Levkin from Tver, Russia, is one of the typical characters. He is a neo-Nazi fugitive convicted of being part of a gang that committed numerous ethnic murders. He is also the lead singer of the band M8L8TH, which glorifies fascism, the SS and the concentration camps of the Third Reich.
Quotes from Levkin's diary hit the internet in 2008.
"Adolf Hitler is the Great Leader who has engaged in an unequal fight for our White World. He is the Great Symbol of Our Struggle".
Another volunteer, Joachim Fürholm from Norway, calls himself a "national socialist revolutionary" and "admires" what [2011 far-right Norway bomber Anders] Breivik did. In an interview with the Nazi radio Radio Wehrwolf, found by Bellingcat (an organisation recognised as a foreign agent in Russia), Fürholm considers Azov to be a "laboratory of fascism".
"I found myself leading a small group of volunteers from all over the West: the aim was to get some combat experience and send some of the guys back to pass on skills and knowledge. In a way, it is a fascist laboratory. The conditions there are optimal", he explained.
Beat the Dog Before the Lion
From the outset, all of the volunteer battalions were haunted by scandals: looting and sexual violence (Shakhtersk and Tornado Battalions were the most prominent), kidnapping and killing of civilians (by the notorious Donbass Battalion) and the seizure of businesses.
There was less talk about the Azov. After all, it was an extremely closed unit and the strict hierarchy and the constant threat of reprisals against one's own people played a role.
However, some who joined Azov as volunteers without right-wing radical ideas could not get along in the Nazi environment and revolted. They were the ones who made the White Leader's unpleasant juicy details public.
"I and 15 other fighters left the battalion because of our disagreements, including ideological, with the actions of the commanders and their underlings. Instead of fighting, they are engaged in looting and plundering", Azov Deputy Commander Yaroslav Gonchar told a correspondent of the Vesti Reporter. "In my presence, two trucks with looted property were taken from Yanukovych's wife Lyudmyla's dacha in Urzuf settlement. Property was also stolen from Yanukovych's hunting grounds in Starodubovka. When I declared such actions, as well as open support for nationalism in the battalion, as unacceptable they tied me up and threw me in the basement. There they tortured me. People saying that the Azov Battalion is pure and innocent are blatantly lying. The battalion has turned into a gang, only extreme rightwingers are accepted. If a person does not adhere to nationalist convictions, he will not be accepted into Azov".
From 'Hateful' to 'Heroes'
Now, almost 80 years after the demise of the Third Reich, Nazi battalions openly marching through the streets of European cities with their symbols which are banned in the civilized world, the unpunished killing of civilians, looting, extortion, reprisals and punitive operations are again a reality.
Back in 2015, the US Congress banned the Pentagon from supplying portable anti-aircraft missile systems to Ukraine and from training and equipping the Azov Battalion. Congressional representatives called it a "disgusting Nazi formation". This was a reaction to a number of publications in the US press in which shocked journalists wrote about the openly Nazi views of both the leadership and fighters of Azov.
But seven years later, the world is witnessing how the "hideous Nazi formation" began to be fashioned into valiant heroes, the "defenders of Mariupol".
Sources
https://youtu.be/JM0VYkL_UI4?si=qviwCAcut4XwZhkA
https://youtu.be/4yZvWAwU5W4?si=hhOfUjq3POELNAjF
Part 4. Ukraines crimes during civil war and their evil actions
Let's get into ukranian crimes against humanity from 2014 against donbass that aided this conflict starting.
Ignoring international agreements and treaties, starting from April 2014, the Ukrainian security forces have permanently opened heavy fire on settlements in Donbass which caused casualties and injuries among thousands of civilians not involved in the military conflict. Ukraine used lethal weapons with indiscriminate effects that are banned by international humanitarian law. These are weapons designed to kill people and destroy infrastructure as efficiently as possible. Many settlements, primarily those located close to the contact line, were left without water, gas and electricity, the mobile telecommunication services were interrupted, access to food and medicine was cut off. People were killed by artillery shells fired by the Ukrainian army, died from famine, lack of water and medicine.
With sheer cynicism, the Ukrainian military forces were shelling hospitals, morgues and schools modified as bomb shelters. Cemeteries were also shelled. This led to spontaneously formed mass graves of civilians who fell victims of Ukraine's military and political regime and its Western curators.
As of December 2021, more than 16 such graves, both mass and single. One of the single burials contained the remains of a four‑month baby. Altogether, 295 human remains were removed from graves, analysed and officially registered between August and November 2021. The first forensic examination of the remains found in all the graves in the LPR and the DPR showed that most of the dead were women and elderly men who died from firearm and mine blast injuries and blunt-force traumas.
In addition to massacres in Donbass caused by shelling, Kyiv imposed the water supply, economic and transport blockade on Donbass that resulted in a humanitarian disaster in the region. Life in most cities located along the contact line became a struggle for sheer survival under total war conditions when nobody makes a distinction between a civilian and a combatant.
The Donbass residents lived that way for almost eight years. The economic and transport blockade imposed by Kyiv on Donbass has continued, as well as the permit regime for citizens crossing the contact line in the conflict-affected area. These restrictions greatly hinder access to basic services, in particular to water supply, heating and healthcare, for several millions of conflict-affected people, including more than a million of registered internally displaced persons (IDPs) and citizens living in areas of armed clashes, and lead to the lack of adequate housing, effective remedies and redress mechanisms.
Ukrainian authorities do not guarantee sustainable payment of pensions to all Ukrainian citizens regardless their place of residence and registration. Residents of the DPR and LPR still find themselves in a dire situation with social benefits and pensions as they face significant difficulties in obtaining them. Restrictions imposed by the authorities in Kiev create most unfavourable conditions for residents of South-Eastern Ukraine and hinder payment of their benefits and other entitlements. Particular risks occur due to the requirement for residents of these territories to regularly confirm their status in the territory controlled by Kiev. In order to do that they have to regularly cross the "contact line". Crossing is complicated by long queues as well as the persistent danger of the escalation of hostilities.
IDPs, who also face considerable difficulties in receiving social benefits, find themselves in a precarious situation.
In 2018, President’s representative at the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine Iryna Lutsenko said that as of 2014, about 1.2 million pensioners lived in the south-east of the country. After the outbreak of hostilities, pensions continued to be paid to 570,000 people who lived in the territory controlled by Kyiv. Over 600,000 people were left without social support from the authorities. According to the Pension Fund of Ukraine, only 562 thousand people registered in the unrecognized republics (which is less than half of their total number as of August 2014) continued to receive funds through this entity in December 2018.
https://russian.rt.com.ussr/article/727754-donbass-pensii-oon-ukraina/amp
These problems came to the attention of international human rights mechanisms which noted, in this regard, that the conflict unleashed by the Kyiv authorities in the south-east of the country negatively affects the entire population, causing massive impoverishment and contributing to economic stagnation. So, between 2013 and 2015 alone, the percentage of people with incomes below the subsistence level increased from 22 per cent to 58 per cent.
https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G18/448/76/PDF/G1844876.pdf?OpenElement
The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (the HRMU) noted that the lack of access to quality basic services and the discriminatory policy of the Kiev authorities continue to have a negative impact on the rights of residents affected by the conflict in the south-east, including the IDPs, particularly on freedom of movement and access to pensions and social benefits. Noting the implementation of a mechanism for paying compensation for houses destroyed during the conflict (this was only made possible after urgent appeals by international human rights entities), the Mission expressed concerns about the continued discrimination of the conflict-affected citizens on the basis of their place of residence, as well as the non-transparent methods of calculating the compensation amount. Moreover, the problem of using civilian property for military purposes without compensation remains. Neither central nor local authorities provided adequate housing and paid compensation to persons forced to relocate due to their property being used for military purposes or due to the proximity to military positions.
https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/ReportUkraine16May-15Aug2019_EN.pdf
Juan Pablo Bohoslavsky (Argentina), Independent Expert on the effects of foreign debt and other related international financial obligations of States on the full enjoyment of all human rights, pointed out in his report following his visit to Ukraine in May 2018 that pensioners living in Donbass were forced to regularly cross the checkpoints and register as internally displaced persons in order to continue receiving pension payment. At the same time, they face risks to life and significant travel expenses – from 50 to 80 per cent of the pension. According to Juan Pablo Bohoslavsky, over 600,000 pensioners do not receive payments. Moreover, the payment of pensions to those who registered their place of residence in territories controlled by the Ukrainian authorities was stopped in 2017.
https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G18/448/76/PDF/G1844876.pdf?OpenElement
The Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women noted this problem within its mandate, pointing out the inconsistency between law and practice in Ukraine. In particular, while noting the adoption of the Act on Ensuring the Rights and Freedoms of Internally Displaced Persons in October 2014, as well as a number of resolutions and decrees on assistance to internally displaced women, the Committee stressed that the no measures were taken. The Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) in August 2016 also drew attention to the hardship of displaced people. In particular, the Committee is concerned at the linkage of social benefits, including pensions, to the status of IDP and residence in the areas controlled by the Kyiv authorities, which prevents some internally displaced persons from having access to such social benefits; the hampering of the local integration of internally displaced persons by the legal and regulatory framework; difficulties in accessing affordable housing and adequate employment by such people; and restrictions on freedom of movement, which prevents access of IDP to social services, education and health-care services.
The CERD also noted that people are placed in physical danger when crossing the checkpoints. Thus, they may get caught in crossfire or get hurt by land-mines. All these factors prevent persons belonging to ethnic minorities, such as Roma, from registering as IDP and having access to social assistance. Most such persons are at risk of discrimination and stigmatization. OHCHR and the OSCE SMM regularly monitor the development in the area. Human rights defenders noted that due to the imposition of restrictions in the light of the spread of Covid-19, the hardship of the population affected by the conflict has become even more acute. The situation was greatly exacerbated by the fact that it became virtually impossible to cross the line of contact since many people simply could not meet the requirements for a permit.
In March 2020, Matilda Bogner (Australia), head of the Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU), emphasized to the Kyiv authorities that they needed to commence pension payments to the residents of the non-controlled territories of Donbass, calling on the newly formed Government and Parliament to review the draft law on pensions in accordance with human rights standards and to resume the process of its adoption as a matter of priority.
https://russian.rt.com.ussr/article/727754-donbass-pensii-oon-ukraina/amp
The HRMMU report which covers the period from 1 August 2020 to 31 January 2021, notes that the number of contact line crossings has decreased by 96 per cent compared to the 2019-2020 pre-Covid-19 period (from 7,117,000 to 294,000 people). Matilda Bogner, head of the HRMMU, noted that so far Ukraine has not developed a State policy of legal protection and compensation for victims of the conflict, and no mechanism for registering children born in the non-controlled territories has been introduced (as a result, some 65,000 children do not have birth certificates). Residents of South-Eastern Ukraine are subjected to discriminatory treatment by Ukrainian law enforcement agencies. Keeping track of the situation regarding of the right to liberty and security of person, international human rights monitoring institutions have noted multiple facts of illegal detention, torture, intimidation, ill-treatment, and sexual violence. Similar examples are regularly included in the reports of the Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine. Numerous violations of citizens’ rights to a fair trial continue to occur, including in criminal cases related to the conflict in Donbass. It is common to force persons under investigation to conclude plea agreements, try cases in the absence of the accused, for right-wing radical nationalists to attack lawyers and intimidate them, as well as put pressure on members of the judiciary. The use of torture and violence against detainees by law enforcement officials and the Security Service of Ukraine (SSU) is systemic and is characterized, as a rule, by impunity.[9] Cases of unlawful detention, torture and ill-treatment by the SSU against persons detained on charges related to the conflict in the south-east are regularly documented by the HRMMU.
https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G19/010/58/PDF/G1901058.pdf?OpenElement
There is a widespread problem of coercing confessions. The HRMMU has recorded complaints that the SSU and the investigating authorities forced people to confess in front of the camera that they belong to or have links with armed groups. In several cases, such videos were published on the official websites of the National Police and the SSU. At the same time, according to the Mission, the detainees made statements against themselves as a result of torture, ill-treatment, or intimidation by SSU officers.
https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine-admin-justice-conflict-related-cases-en.pdf
In a joint report, human rights organization Human Rights Watch together with Amnesty International noted, with reference to their 2016 investigation, the illegal and violent nature of the detention of citizens by employees of the Ukrainian special services and investigative authorities. Such incidents include cases related to expressing disagreement with the official policy of the Kyiv authorities. Illegal detention of Konstantin Beskorovainy by SSU officers from November 2014 to February 2016 for participating in anti-Maidan rallies and events in defence of Soviet monuments served as an example. He was accused of preparing terrorist attacks. He was tortured and ill-treated, as a result his health seriously deteriorated. Konstantin Beskorovainy also said that the cells in which he was kept were overcrowded, and the people in them, including those with disabilities and the elderly, were systematically beaten and were detained for the exchange of prisoners of war. After his release, he, along with other former prisoners, officially filed a complaint against the actions of the SSU. During the investigation, there were unreasonable delays in the proceeding, victims were intimidated, leading to their refusal to participate in the criminal process. Among other things, the territorial office of the military prosecutor attempted to change the applicant’s status from victim to witness and to close the case. The investigation was reopened after several appeals.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/08/06/ukraine-justice-still-needed-victims-unlawful-detention-eastern-
ukraine https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur50/2852/2020/en/
Torture of detained persons by the SSU was also confirmed by persons who took part in the exchange of detainees between Kyiv and the LPR and the DPR. In particular, persons who returned from territories controlled by Kyiv after the exchange of detainees that took place on 29 December 2019 said that officials of the SSU and the Azov radical group tortured them to obtain confessions. In particular, prisoners had to take responsibility for fighting in Mariupol on 9 May 2014 and to testify about their sabotage training near Rostov. The detainees were subjected to beating, strangling, mock hanging or drowning, tortured with electric shocks, and threatened with reprisals against their loved ones.
Athlete released from detention in Ukraine said she had been tortured by the SSU. Izvestia. 21 December 2019. https://iz.ru/export/google/amp/960488 Persons exchanged between Kyiv and Donbass spoke about torture by the SSU. Izvestia. 21 December 2019. https://iz.ru/export/google/amp/960488 Person exchanged between Kyiv and Donbass spoke about being tortured with electric shocks. Izvestia. 31 December 2019. https://iz.ru/960331/2019-12-31/uchastnik-obmena-mezhdu-kievom-i-donbassom-rasskazal-o-pytkakh-tokom
Exchanged persons also said that they had been kept in secret SSU prisons before being sent to detention centres. At the same time, several weeks to several months passed from actual detention to its official registration.
According to Human Rights Ombudsman of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic Daria Morozova, all detainees released by Kyiv confirmed that they had been subjected to illegal interrogation methods.
https://iz.ru/960173/2019-12-30/ombudsmen-dnr-zaiavila-o-pytkakh-liudei-v-ukrainskom-plenu
Ukraines atrocities commited by far right groups and military dyring seige of rubizhne including attacking hospitals, aid shelters and refugees.
https://mronline.org/2022/09/27/from-the-tops-market-massacre-to-ukraines-war-crimes-in-donbass/
In September 2014 a mass grave of around 400 people was found with Amnesty International confirming that deaths had occurred.
Ukraine firing GRAD Rockets into heavily populated areas
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians
Torture, rape and executions of numerous ethnic Russians or separatists by the Ukrainian SBU during 2014 to 2016.
Techniques widely used by the Ukrainian armed forces and security forces include waterboarding, strangling with a ‘Banderist garrotte’ and other types of strangling.
In some cases prisoners, for the purposes of intimidation, were sent to minefields and run over with military vehicles, which led to their death.
Other torture methods used by the Ukrainian armed forces and security forces include bone-crashing, stabbing and cutting with a knife, branding with red-hot objects, shooting different body parts with small arms.
The prisoners taken captive by the Ukrainian armed forces and security forces are kept for days at freezing temperatures, with no access to food or medical assistance, and are often forced to take psychotropic substances that cause agony.
An absolute majority of prisoners are put through mock firing squads and suffer death and rape threats to their families. Many of those tortured are not members of the self-defense
It's honestly hilarious seeing the blatant hypocrisy from amnesty international and HRW on how they ignore the mass reports from those living in donbas about crimes committed by Ukrainian forces or just sweep it past with
“The past twelve months have brought horror to the previously peaceful Ukraine. Indiscriminate attacks, abduction, torture and summary killings feature prominently in the catalogue of abuses. ”
Or like always have to remind you that it's Russia's fault or that Russia is doing this.
They will try to downplay what the maiden Rioters did. Most were probably peaceful protests Similar to jan 6th but a lot of the government responses was because of groups like this
https://youtu.be/kI-J_ENr4aY?si=8dPnj7P9vrl2bFOe
https://youtu.be/o-Gkbs2bDJs?si=4MiDJOIZkgvxd4gu
https://youtu.be/8oJMGgaww70?si=ffXF2ZxWxG3qwUC-
https://youtu.be/Nqh9VS1cb84?si=dOTnTLtof5LsJVuU
https://youtu.be/B8xE-GkSIyg?si=c_84pTYeVI5-odiV
https://youtu.be/HmN-A5efPQs?si=YxHwGHAsQaZCyYpI
https://youtu.be/Hq8OzRXUgbk?si=uH6DVSguRcGOgYKz
The rebels in donetsk and luhansk literally wanted Russia to invade as soon as possible yet apparently Russia was incredibly aggressive
https://youtu.be/0QGFZev_h7g?si=AT3i4fJ0NrB_lVxd
All they wanted was a referendum, these are just people who did not agree with ousting of the legal president
https://youtu.be/DDayrA86miI?si=Clkhu8JxLRvxdDpE
https://youtu.be/78w1oB4gbTs?si=xiVsNwsoh6WU-GLn
https://youtu.be/N9CoQsr1SFw?si=wLpg5kd5dodEoj0G
Or they will say in 2021 that russia's buildup in Belarus was aggression yet apparently Ukraines actions (that we went over earlier) isn't aggression.
Another thing that's brought up is the "conscription" myth.
Russia has no active conscription for deployment in Ukraine. In 2022 there was a partial mobilisation of the army reserves and BARS groups, these are people who are active service but not deployed along with those who are in russias version of the national guard.
Ukraine has conscription. In 2022 they mobilised all 900k of their reserves and in 2023 they enacted mass conscription of all men above the age of 21.
These videos go into Ukrainian conscription along with showing the HUNDREDS of videos showing civilians being kidnapped by the TDF (territorial defence forces) and forced into the military and how people try to escape along with the brutality shown by the TDF against those who try to flee including shootings and beatings. Many of the times this isn't just against people actually called up, these groups have "quotas" they have to full, they literally kidnap random men who they think looks over 18, even the police when they arrest someone they will hand them over to the TDF.
https://youtu.be/fL-VmNRy0i4?si=83jB92D9BEFk4Lkh
https://youtu.be/Yx-6-9oWxk4?si=bojV5mWMWKu-FZUB
This is stuff you won't see in Russia BTW. Western propaganda tried and failed to imply Russians were fleeing on mass in 2022 yet they provided no evidence, meanwhile there is hundreds of videos, stories and photos of those trying to flee Bandera Ukraine. This isn't normal conscription when its s luck of the draw, this is modern fascism with young men kidnapped and forced to fight for the ruling class safe in their bunkers in Kiev.
Another thing we hear for the justification of malice against Russia is how barbaric they are. There's no denying that both Russia and Ukraine have committed untold numbers of atrocities but we are willing to bet they're no different to the US and more moral in terms of civilian casualties.
Part 5: How Ukraine is worse than Russia on war crimes and why the US is also worse.
Source: Cost of War at the Watson Institute brown University
This said Russia is an absolute Saint compared to the evil that is Israel.
But let's go over civilian deaths.
First we have the Korean war which estimates for North Korea civilians are anywhere from 1 million to 2 and half million over 3 years.
The Korean War: A History p.31-35
https://youtu.be/fE9MUwAbFQI?si=g4gFIiYDf0ZkACdt
https://youtu.be/sFMUPVAEaQE?si=5PaCYTxNXiTBC0ax
We have Vietnam which was 405,000–4,000,000 over 9 years or 1,156,000-5,595,000 over 15 years.
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB6.1B.GIF
https://youtu.be/cDk8Fo8ss8M?si=0K5oUobosIuDHkYa
https://youtu.be/Fa7VGxMYcd8?si=9fin572OtKRxoprJ
Gulf war from various groups show 3,644-206,000 civilian casualties over 5 weeks.
https://youtu.be/GxOtbNSoDSU?si=yOUK92y4rsm28x-u
https://youtu.be/__WOXCc9zCE?si=xmPQ0ZqeAjO2FXNO
https://comw.org/pda/0310rm8ap2.html#5.%20The%20Highway%28s%29%20of
Then we also have
USA supported Pakistan during its genocide of Bangladesh killing 300,000-3,000,000 people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_genocide?wprov=sfla1
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/04/henry-kissinger-role-in-bengali-massacre
USA supported Indonesia during it's genocide in east Timor killing over 200,000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor_genocide?wprov=sfla1
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/sep/19/indonesia.easttimor1
Then we have the Soviets who invaded Afghanistan at the invitation of the secular socialist government to help crush the islamic extremists who wanted an Islamic caliphate and who would go on to become the Taliban. All that aside the Soviets easily secured the country and fought a guerrilla war against the US armed and trained mujahideen. Killing a low of 500,000 to a high of 3 million according to various groups over 10 years.
https://www.alternativeinsight.com/Afghan_War.html
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-6/afghan.htm
https://socialistworker.co.uk/features/afghanistan-first-the-russians-then-the-us/
https://youtu.be/hp71RPL1iAw?si=OJVejYFulrqBtnyB
https://youtu.be/KRZdmDbNRCI?si=l3J2Kf0qCvFz0276
https://youtu.be/G3izD18ogig?si=cijN8WTMwpGV_x2e
https://youtu.be/HpQd4OfD6no?si=ndrh_ZPGYfJ_Dm8Z
https://youtu.be/wvK0Y_u8D7g?si=JopuUwx4_qPscJPN
https://youtu.be/qC-KMmNqA8s?si=077DoznBb1bnga0m
https://youtu.be/5adzjaNMrgo?si=-oOpmZksJvOoK3Dd
https://youtu.be/1R-y2wau7po?si=dHNzluY1baKF6shp
https://youtu.be/ErmC0U8wt2o?si=G35xaJbrXeCWdMmv
https://youtu.be/K-DrmefJJGA?si=glYxMYSgnPxHFFYN
So let's do the maths. The Korean war (north) had a median casualties of 1.8 million over 3 years so that's on average ~1,600 people killed every day for 3 years. The Vietnam war had a median Casualty of 2 million over 9 years so that's on average ~968 people killed every day for 9 years. With the gulf war killing an average of 80,000 so that's an average of ~2,200 people killed every day for 5 weeks.
The Soviets killed a median of 1.2 million over 10 years so that's an average of ~365 per day for 10 years.
Iraq war civilian death tolls over 9 years
Lancet survey 392,979–942,636
Iraq Family Health Survey 104,000–223,000
ORB 946,258–1,120,000
PLOS 48,000–751,000
US Military acknowledges ~400,000
Remember this is just ONE war. Not including Afghanistan, first gulf war, Syria and Libya.
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/warlogs/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3797136/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/16/iraq.iraqtimeline
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa0707782
http://brusselstribunal.org/pdf/lancet111006.pdf
Meanwhile Ukraine Fatalities are at just under ~14,000 for nearly 4 years with high estimates being ~40,000
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/country-chapters/ukraine
https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-september-2023
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/ukraine-42-civilian-causalities-every-day-two-years-war
https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says
Whilst over a decade in 2nd chechyna war
Society for Threatened Peoples International estimates deaths in 2nd chechyna war at ~80,000 whilst amnesty international says ~30,000
Over 2 years for 1st chechyna war
Human rights watch, red cross and amnesty International estimate ~100,000, bonner estimates 130,000 with Russian military acknowledging ~40,000
https://web.archive.org/web/20160102230322/http://www.polit.ru/article/2004/02/19/kniga_chisel/
https://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/04/world/chechnya-toll-is-far-higher-80000-dead-lebed-asserts.html
https://reliefweb.int/report/russian-federation/second-chechen-war
Syria and Georgia were negligible but let's be kind to you and give them ~100,000.
https://web.archive.org/web/20080905072252/http://osetinfo.ru/spisok
https://web.archive.org/web/20090511232012/http://www.ossetia-war.com/dvlist
https://web.archive.org/web/20110516082212/http://interfax.ru/txt.asp?id=88497&sec=1476
So we have for one war 104,000 to 1,120,000 civilian deaths with a median of ~500,000 over 9 years, that's an average of 152 civilians every day for 9 years.
Whilst across 5 wars and several decades we have a low of 180,000 to 340,000 with a median of 250,000. Now the average civilian Fatalities per day in Ukraine are 27 for two years. In 1st chechyna war it's 95 a day for two years. For 2nd war its 13 a day for ten years and for Georgia and Syria a couple a day.
The USA is far more barbaric civilian casualties wise.
Another factor we hear about why the Russian invasion is somehow extra brutal or evil is how many horrific war crimes Russia committed.
Western media and Ukraine love to bring up civilian casualties showing Russian brutality ignoring that Ukraine is no different.
Ukraine strikes against civilians
https://youtu.be/FRuI2t9rR_M?si=W5Gdc-Ew92j-0mLd
https://youtu.be/85qAWk_PKv4?si=wbegwoXOKFJ9me7Y
https://youtu.be/EALF8eU3kGs?si=-xl2ANdL4JlV0wfy
https://youtu.be/KdjsLPfO_I4?si=N3u6RexDiyJQbsMW
https://youtu.be/EVen9hfDEsc?si=hsF3QxxudjeUQ1O5
https://youtu.be/sgRmb9cCnAY?si=NfolOV-5UL81o4Bo
https://youtu.be/iW3ESvxIh28?si=sFlBwDmw0I--8GwF
https://youtu.be/UOEg9mDw2X0?si=OyNNkrn2OGO56KDR
https://youtu.be/MOhrm-krEgM?si=PD3ThPsxa2s4MPo-
https://youtu.be/snHjv1hDkXo?si=fokGv3OjVEXWI_as
https://youtu.be/OTY4s8sMMPM?si=rUylngtGR-jH4I5F
https://youtu.be/1fsMqYqHnN0?si=qfcSTDn42Kxxlw4C
https://youtu.be/rsu9FkykgNM?si=4KcaraR3V3gAPfo6
https://youtu.be/_ieQ-ZfcohQ?si=k-lqAsbuJyXi4Sx4
https://youtu.be/_KDuMGWQv1s?si=HDIrjatrdV64dOj4
They larp on about how Russia mistreat and tortures Ukrainian POWs ignoring Ukraine does the exact same since 2014.
Torture of Russian POWs
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/26/russian-soldier-pow-ukraine
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/11/1130657
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-pow-russia-war-united-nations-29bc27d06d6bad359c957fdb0aa9f929
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-pow-russia-war-united-nations-29bc27d06d6bad359c957fdb0aa9f929
Western media loves to go on about bucha (yet ignores 🇮🇱 daily Buchas times 100 for over a year) and their only evidence is Ukraine. So using this same standard let's go over the atrocities committed by Ukrainians in kursk. From the official Russian report compiled by survivors.
Artem Aleksandrovich Kuznetsov, resident of Sudzha (Kursk region)
"down from where we lived. They just took him into the house and shot him dead there. His mum buried
him in the yard of her house.
I met a guy who drove out around five o’clock in the evening. Right at the exit, where there was a
bypass road from the city behind the roadblock, a UAF soldier pulled out a gun and started shooting. They
shot at the cars and people. That man managed to escape. There were a lot of abandoned cars. It meant
that the people were killed. They did not let peaceful, ordinary people leave. I don't know what kind of
troops they have in Ukraine. They just came in to clear the city from the people, to kill everybody.
A woman at the train station was trying to get into her car to leave. She was blown up by a Ukrainian
drone. Her legs were torn off, she was lying there screaming, and no one could approach her. She stay"
Zoya Ananyeva, resident of the Kurilovka village (Kursk region)
"I was on the night shift at work, it was half past seven. I worked in Kurilovk
Absolute beasts they were. There were boys of 10-12 years old. They tried to leave, but were shot
dead. The Ukrainian soldiers fired at all civilian cars. They are beasts, aren’t they. They shoot
indiscriminately. On Goncharovka they came in, opened the basement and didn't look whether there was
a person or not. They threw a grenade in there. That's all.
When I was with our military, I said, ‘Please take revenge for our fate and for those boys who stayed
there.’
6. Valentina Ivanovna Zolotaryova, 71 years old, resident of Zaoleshenka village (Kursk reg"
Valentina Ivanovna Zolotaryova, 71 years old, resident of Zaoleshenka village (Kursk region)
" The Ukrainian Armed Forces soldiers entered the house of my acquaintances, a woman and her
husband, and killed them. Her house was near the village council of Zaoleshenka. She worked in the village
council. They stayed there as they couldn't get out, and they were killed. She was about 80 years old, and
so was he. The Ukrainian military just shot them dead.
In the neighbouring village a son came to visit his mother. The Ukrainian forces came in and killed them
both, him and his mother. His mother was younger than me, about 55 years old."
Rape, torture, execution just horrible war crimes.
In this report supposedly rape and execution.
According to Russian Court documents, out of the nearly 1000+ captured Ukrainian soldiers since August 2024, 46 have been sentenced to terms between 6 to 30+ years with 92 ongoing cases and nearly 60 pending investigations. Charges vary from rape, child killing, mass murder, theft, kidnapping etc all charged under terrorism laws.
https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/143760-kursk-battle-court-moscow.html
During Ukraines counter offensive against donbass captured ethnic russians and POWs were subject to torture by bone breaks, dismemberment, burned with hot irons, forced into minefields.
Now are these true ? Probably, probably not. Probably half and half. As spoken about earlier, war crimes are unfortunately part of warfare. If you genuinely think Ukraine doesn't commit war crimes then you are naive. Both sides do. The difference is scale.
"What do you mean scale"
The war crimes in the Ukraine war are just normal (yeah as sad to say" there's no indication of systemic atrocities.
But you want to know where there is evidence of such things? Israel.
You see this is what supremely annoys me. You see if western liberals were happy to judge their own side as they do others, I'd have no problems condemning with full outrage what Russia has done. But its their blatant hypocrisy.
Like they want us to think russians are beasts for rape, torture and murders.
Okay. Ignoring Ukraine and Israel.
What about the USA?
In Afghanistan and Iraq.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings?wprov=sfla1
Gang rape of a 14 year old girl, then gutted like a fish and burned. Her family was shot beforehand. Higher ups wanted to cover it up.
Want to know the fucking worst thing. Out of the five one is already out and the others we're given life sentences and eligible for parole IN TEN YEARS.
Fucking disgusting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse?wprov=sfla1
Abu ghraib torture scandal. Rape, assaults and torture.
Little to no arrests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre?wprov=sfla1
Various massacres with children shot dead at point blank.
On 3 October 2015, a United States Air Force AC-130Ugunship attacked the Kunduz Trauma Centre operated by Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF, or Doctors Without Borders) in the city of Kunduz, in the province of the same name in northern Afghanistan. 42 people were killed and over 30 were injured. Médecins Sans Frontières condemned the incident, calling it a deliberate breach of international humanitarian law and a war crime. It further stated that all warring parties had been notified about the hospital and its operations well in advance.
No charges was brought and families who lost loved ones were paid a measly 6000 dollars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike?wprov=sfla1
US armed and funded Saudi Arabia following Israel by destroying over 130 hospitals and medical centres.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi-led_airstrikes_on_Yemen?wprov=sfla1
I also don't even need to go into Israel.
Or let's look at the Okinawa incidents
US servicemen in Okinawa commit sex crimes at a rate 20-40 times higher than the national average.
I'm seeing a lot of US servicemen commenting the stat about US Forces' crimes in Okinawa being four times lower than the crimes of the general population. That is very misleading, as that includes all crimes, and we are specifically talking about sex crimes.
In the six years of 2016-2021 inclusive, there was an annual average of 3183.66 reports of rape and forcible indecency in Japan. That's one reported rape or forcible indecency for every 0.000025 people in Japan.
In the six years of 2015-2020 inclusive, there was an annual average of 11.5 convictions of sexual offenses involving minors among the Marines in Okinawa. That's one convicted sexual offense involving minors for every 0.000575 Marines in Okinawa.
In the three years of 2015-2017 inclusive, there was an average of 21.66 cases where Marines in Okinawa were imprisoned for sexual offenses targeting adults, minors, or animals. That's one imprisonment for sexual offenses targeting adults, minors, or animals for every 0.00108 Marines in Okinawa.
https://www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/15581291
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/12/13/asia/us-serviceman-sentenced-rape-schoolgirl-hnk
The US fucking president in 2002 literally signed an executive order DENYING POWs basic human rights.
so many horrific crimes
mass murder of children
torture facilities
Dozens of mass killings of civilians
Numerous purpose air strikes against civilians
Mass rape
Sources
https://wikileaks.org/10years/iraq.html
https://archive.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/atrocitindex.htm
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/03/19/twenty-years-iraq-bears-scars-us-led-invasion
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/iraq-war-american-media-crimes-covers-up-how
https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/the-west-s-war-crime-denialism-in-iraq-42650
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-abu-ghraib-prison-tortured-29476715
https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/07/06/how-us-funded-abuses-led-failure-afghanistan
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/us-afghanistan-war-crimes-victims-justic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiriyah_shelter_bombing?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasht-i-Leili_massacre?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haska_Meyna_wedding_party_airstrike?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granai_airstrike?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_abuse?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Lorance?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_raid_on_Narang?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azizabad_airstrike?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Shinwar_shooting?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_madrassa_airstrike?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parwan_Detention_Facility?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12%2C_2007%2C_Baghdad_airstrike?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishaqi_massacre?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah_during_the_Iraq_War?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukaradeeb_wedding_party_massacre?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_%28torture_victim%29?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Baha_Mousa?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Miller?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings?wprov=sfla1
https://www.ecchr.eu/en/publication/the-iraq-invasion-is-a-crime/
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/03/19/twenty-years-iraq-bears-scars-us-led-invasion
Let's not forget Ukraine also took part in the brutal occupation of Iraq.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_involvement_in_the_Iraq_War?wprov=sfla1
In Vietnam don't even get me started. Nazi level shit, People forget how evil the USA was in Vietnam, mass rapes, butchering children, gang raping little girls, burning children alive, disemboweling father's in front of their families. It was by far the most brutal barbaric conflict post WWII.
US soldiers were taught by the military to view the Vietnamese people as animals, they were all “charlie” or all “vietcong” the men, the women, the elderly, the children, the disabled. All were seen as the enemy and given zero mercy. It was not individual either, it was SYSTEMIC. The US military enteted Vietnam to stop the communists from getting elected, after their proxy war began failing in the late 60s, their cruelty only intensifed, dropping napalm on villages full of children and civilians became the norm, grunts would keep scores of how many women and girls they raped, how many men and boys heads they popped, they would collect skulls as trophies, regularly torture civilians for “harbouring VC sympathies” and as the war drew on, and it became obvious they wouldn't win as they lost huge territories in Cambodia and in the north, their evil again just got worse.
They also ran a campaign of terror. They would purposely torture civilians including
Burning
Rape
Dismemberment
Eviscerated
Eye removal
Castration
Flaying
Bone braking
Literally the most disgusting cartel level shit was done on men, women and children, ANYONE who was even REMOTELY sympathetic to the NVA or VC, this was done for two reasons. To scare the ARVN civilian population against supporting NVA and to terrorise the NVA population. This was done to nearly ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND people.
Civilian Casualties in North Vietnam are around 1 to 3m with high estimates around 4 to 5m with most being caused by US terror bombings. This is triple to 5x times the number in the south.
This was similar in Korean war
20-30% of the population of the northern peninsular was killed.
Chemical and Biological Weapons used by the US.
95% of buildings destroyed in the DPRK.
Constant threat of Nuclear Weapons.
100s of Massacres of Civilians by ROK and US forces before and during the war.
Any group of more than 8 people who were not ROK or US forces were to be strafed (shot at) by US Aircraft as policy, even if they were civilians.
Sources
Kill anything that moves: the real American war in Vietnam p263-348. War Without Fronts: The USA in Vietnam p55-85 / p180-238 / p143-179/ p239-287. The Phoenix Program: America's Use of Terror in Vietnam c10-15, c17-19, c23-25 & c27
https://youtu.be/zXSAxQlBJ1c?si=B5tPU-pYEwZMG-FS
https://youtu.be/Di7BLBlNFX0?si=hx606bT_lGrtzUmE
https://youtu.be/mMEspk6YqSI?si=UtQbIp9IhU8RRWVm
https://youtu.be/fE9MUwAbFQI?si=Lo_WELmJ1488icwi
https://youtu.be/sFMUPVAEaQE?si=npKNPsANDXBvMahj
https://youtu.be/e-Tgv-ABoZ4?si=HqANxIYQB44Ojqz4
https://youtu.be/Fa7VGxMYcd8?si=6qp-bWr-yqtWny5x
https://www.latimes.com/la-na-vietnam20aug20-sg-storygallery.html
https://www.pulitzer.org/article/i-sent-them-good-boy-and-they-made-him-murderer
https://www.alotrip.com/about-vietnam-history/war-crimes-vietnam-war
https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/upi_vietnam/223/
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/the-vietnam-war-crimes-you-never-heard-of
These are the people who call Russian army beasts.
But why am I sharing these ?.
Because I'm showing you that war crimes are part of war. It's an unfortunate reality, Russia is no worse than Ukraine or USA in this regard (although stat wise they seem to be much better and more moral than USA). Although the USA in Vietnam was similar to Israel in gaza, that being nazi level.
A decent person should want peace as fast as possible.
We need to reiterate. We support NEITHER SIDE. Both are bad. Now do we think that Russia had a moral justification to invade Ukraine? Yes. Yes we do. Why ?
To help secure the people of donbas who were living under constant shelling or attacks from Kiev.
To secure its borders against NATO. NATO talks were springing up again and Ukraine in NATO is absolutely unacceptable for 2 reasons.
If Ukraine joined NATO they could position short range missiles that could be fired towards Moscow.
If Ukraine joined NATO they could launch a military campaign against Donbas and Russia couldn't do anything without triggering article 5.
The rise of far right banderite ideology and its ties to the Ukrainian government.
However, Russia lost all moral justification when they started annexing other oblasts and launching missiles at random in revenge attacks for losing a ship. We support the removal of the Ukrainian government and the establishment of an independent government.
We also need to reiterate that we view this in the lens of lesser evils. Russia is not the good guy, they treat addicts like animals, they have a lot of restrictions to trans identity and they operate a similar kind of capitalist system and arm horrible regimes like Syria and North Korea. BUT compared to the US. Who along with the EU and UK……
Facilities much of the capitalistic exploitation of the third world
Funds and arms genocidal countries like Israel and imperialist countries like Saudi Arabia
Are far more imperialist and kill far more civilians in their imperialist campaigns
Equally support many horrific countries
They are the lesser of evils.
“how can you support Russia their forces have committed numerous war crimes”
The US were seen as the pure good guys in WWII and they absolutely were the lesser of evils. But even still, using low estimates US troops in Europe between 1944-1945, in just over a year commited over 14,000 rapes against women in western Europe (source Taken by Force by Robert Lilly) with German historian who works for Die Zeit newspaper miriam gebhard estimating that over 150,000 women and girls had been raped during the total US occupation of Germany, this was no different To the soviet side aswell with estimates from as low 20,000 to as high as 300,000+. Although Soviets at least had a good reason for hatred. (Read my essay on myths about USSR section about the red army in WWII)
It's a disgusting and horrible reality that violence and atrocities are part and parcel of warfare, this is not unique to Russia. The US in Vietnam commited massacres of people slaughtering children and raping girls, US soldiers in Iraq gang raped a 14 year old girl after murdering her family then gutted her with a knife and set her on fire. It was covered up by the US military and was only exposed because of a whistleblower going to media (his life was threatened for this) and then they bombed a refugee shelter killing hundreds then bombed multiple weddings killings dozens of children.
As for Russia and Ukraine, both sides are bad. Ukrainian forces eye gouged a civilian because they suspected him of helping Russian forces, Russian forces castrated an azov battalion member probably for that reason. When Russian forces entered New areas many known pro Ukrainians were raped, tortured or murdered. Likewise when Ukrainian forces retook cities and towns known pro Russia people were tortured or butchered with many being executed on spot for treason. UN and Amnesty international have reported that both Russian and Ukraine armed forces mistreat POWs with many tortured and interrogated for information.
There are 4 types of war crimes.
Indifference. By far the most common, especially by USA and Israel but also Russia, USSR and practically all military forces I'm afraid especially on foreign soil. This is just militaries not taking the maximum amount of care to reduce civilian casualties. The worst offenders based on stats in modern era are Israel, Saudi Arabia then USA.
Passion. Very common by militaries like Russia, Ukraine, US (post cold war), UK etc. An example would be if you're a russian soldier, you have just seen your squad blown to pieces by FOV Drones. So when you come across the Ukrainian operators you shoot them despite them just doing what your side does.
Ideological. 2nd most common although compared to the first very much less. An example would be some US soldiers in Iraq who hated Iraqis and thus took it out on them. Examples would be Steven Green who raped a little Iraqi girl.
Systemic. Least common overall. Examples would be Israel and their genocide of Palestine, nazis in WWII against Russians or the US in Vietnam. Both times the soldiers were taught by their superiors to view the enemy civilians as less than human and thus treat them as lesser.
So anyone saying that Russia is especially evil or that Ukraine doesn't commit war crimes are just proving that they're an NPC who hasn't been in war, spoke to those in war or done any research.
Part 6
The problem I have with liberals is hypocrisy. I would happily be against Russia if they applied that logic consistently. The only reason they are against Russia is because it's a Conservative government and society that's against the west.
If Russia was pro LGBT (even though it's fully legal to be gay and Trans in Russia) and pro west and didn't commit the crime of treating China like they are humans then these mindless liberal NPCs would happily support them regardless of who they invade or oppress just like they do with USA
Politics not morals.
"eh actually Russia is much worse than the west"
How ?
"Russia invaded Ukraine"
Okay ? What about when Ukraine butchered its own people? What about when Ukrainian president Poroshenko said that people living in the Donbas would have their rights stripped and be refused any government support such as pensions ? What about when Ukraine shelled its own people which is backed by amnesty international? What about when Ukraine refused to negotiate and refused to allow the DPR to exist ?
What about when the US invaded Iraq and launched a far more brutal occupation than it still does to this day ?
What about when the USA and UK helped France destroy Libya and turn it into a hell hole and cause one of the worst refugee crises.
"Russia supports dictatorships"
So ? The US supports Saudi Arabia and funded their genocide of over 300k civilians in Yemen and systematically oppressed ethnic minorities and LGBT people along with support of numerous African tyrants.
"Russia is an oppressive society"
You mean like attacking protestors ? And media
Arresting people for opinions?
https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-raid-homes-of-pro-palestinian-activists/a-70363024
"The US has free speech and lets their enemies speak unlike Russia"
Lol
We have various killings of unarmed people protesting racial laws or war by government forces with no arrests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg_Massacre?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_State_killings?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings?wprov=sfla1
Civilians shooting protestors and being acquitted because the victims were communists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre?wprov=sfla1
Illegal detention of people
"Russia helped Syria kill hundreds of thousands"
The US is responsible for over a million Iraqis and afghan deaths and help Israel with their genocide of Palestine and aided Saudi Arabia and their genocide of Yemen.
"Russia jails anyone who speaks up against their countries crimes"
No different to the west or Ukraine then.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-69006714
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2024/05/15/bosy-m15.html
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/05/chelsea-manning-finally-free-after-cruel-ordeal/
https://www.counterfire.org/article/when-exposing-war-crimes-becomes-a-crime-julian-assange/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534703
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/03/25/nixon-jack-anderson-assassination/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_United_State
"Russia jails people for being against the war"
Do they ? Regardless irrelevant as Ukraine does it aswell and it's very common in war time examples being in WWII even being Japanese was a crime in USA
https://therecord.media/ukrainian-sentenced-for-russian-propaganda
"Russia doesn't prosecute their war criminals"
No different to any other countries then
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2011/3/10/war-crimes-good-exposing-them-bad
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/20/nmrc-j20.html
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2024/05/15/bosy-m15.html
"Russia jails people for being against the war"
Do they ? Regardless irrelevant as Ukraine does it aswell and it's very common in war time examples being in WWII even being Japanese was a crime in USA
https://therecord.media/ukrainian-sentenced-for-russian-propaganda
"Putin is a monster"
Is he ?
Another thing I can't stand about liberals is hypocrisy again. Like they will GLAZE Obama as some great man Yet Putin is a monster.
I'll go off on a limb and say putin is EASILY responsible for less death than dronebama.
Let's see.
Barack Obama.
3 days after his inauguration, he launches his first drone strikes.
https://www.salon.com/2009/03/20/reich_3/
Even before he is inaugurated, he has Citibank privately vet his cabinet.
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/32870
Expanded the "state secret" doctrine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/23/drone-strike-victim-barack-obama
Maintained and continued Bush's rendition policy
Escalates the war in Afghanistan
Didn't pass single-payer even with the following congressional makeup
Legitimized the coup in honduras
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/03/15/us-role-honduras-coup-and-subsequent-violence
Started droning in Pakistan
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/04/world/asia/04drones.html?smid=tw-share
Helped EU and Poroshenko facilitate Coup in Ukraine
Thought police brutality was "police acting stupidly"
Granted immunity to torturers
Expanded illegal spying
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
Arrested those who exposed war crimes
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/16/AR2010121606200.htm
Banned Syrian and Iranian refugees
Authorized bills to keep militarising the Police
https://www.mintpressnews.com/white-house-reauthorize-military-equipment-police/218714/
Enabled Saudi Arabias genocide of Yemen
https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-war-choice-supporting-saudi-led-air-war-yemen
Literally helped France destroy Libya and cause the worst refugee crises of the 2010s
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/20/opinions/libya-chaos-civilian-deaths-bergen-sims
https://www.cato.org/commentary/obama-administration-wrecked-libya-generation
Is a war criminal for Drone strikes
https://harvardpolitics.com/obama-war-criminal/
https://scholarship.law.ufl.edu/flr/vol69/iss1/7/
War criminal for crimes commited by his forces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_post-invasion_Iraq?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Mahali#United_States-led_airstrike_in_2015?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike?wprov=sfla1
Wanted to close Guantanamo Bay but just sent victims To other third countries where they could still be tortured
https://humanrightsfirst.org/library/facts-about-the-transfer-of-guantanamo-detainees/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37090851.amp
So yeah, scumbag.
"Russia doesn't prosecute their war criminals"
No different to any other countries then
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2011/3/10/war-crimes-good-exposing-them-bad
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/20/nmrc-j20.html
The classic liberal cope will be "This is whataboutism" No pointing out your moral hypocrisy is not whataboutism.
So if you are a Liberal. Answer these points
Ukraines relationship to NATO and how it is a legitimate threat to Russia. Simply saying they would never join NATO is not an argument especially when all evidence says elsewise and especially since NATO is not a trustworthy organisation for the reasons I said
The impact, of the anti communist and language legislation and just Ukraine general views towards russians, on ordinary people and how it just made the situation far worse, if you have a division problem in your society why the fuck would you want to make it worse
The increasing aggressive stance from Ukraine in 2021 including zelensky refusing to even negotiate unless all contested lands were back under the control of Ukraine
I mean russias wanted a 3 day ceasefire to celebrate victory day over nazis and not only did Ukraine say they wouldn't accept it but threatened the safety of civilians during the parade.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y4y2252j3o.amp
These are the people who just “want peace”
Disgusting fascist regime.
From an anti war perspective Russia's demands in 2021 were incredibly fine. Ukraine kept its sovereignty, its military its government everything and just let DPR and LPR be independent states and referendum mediated by third party and crimea part of Russia with no NATO
How the invasion in 2022 was not a land grab since Russia just reiterated what they wanted in 2021 during peace talks post invasion
What Ukraine would do to the ethnic Russians living in DPR based on their actions and legislation against the ethnic Russians living in main Ukraine. You can't just say deal with it nor can you just say "move to Russia" we'll you can, literally the definition of ethnic cleansing however
Lastly, how you cannot claim to be against Russia because of its actions in Ukraine yet support countries like the USA, UK, Ukraine, France etc.
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